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Should other religions be added to this thread?

No
Only Judeism
Only Islam
Yes to both Judeism and Islam

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Author Topic: Christian beliefs and discussion  (Read 195093 times)

Arx

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #2310 on: November 12, 2014, 02:14:34 pm »

I think he shouldn't.

And the fact that the gay marriage people chose the one definitely known Christian bakery to make? I dunno if that's a coincidence or not.

Why not?

And yeah, that was at best ridiculously tactless of the gay marriage people.
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Bouchart

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #2311 on: November 12, 2014, 02:14:46 pm »

... a Question for the faithful in this thread. Atheist Christians are totally a thing. The reject god as a workable explanation for anything, but follow the teachings of Jesus. What are your opinions on this?

I find this a bizarre contradiction, as the lessons taught by Jesus are hardly exclusive to Christianity, and part of being a Christian is accepting Jesus as divine.

Yes, it's a basic part of Christian doctrine that Jesus was both human and divine, so you can't be an atheist and claim to be Christian.

One of the things Jesus taught was the proper way to pray to God (Matthew 6:6) after all.
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Baffler

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #2312 on: November 12, 2014, 02:15:20 pm »

I think that as long as it remains a political issue, forcing anyone to do anything one way or the other with litigation is a bad idea. I also think he should have baked the cake, this guy's money's as good as anyone else's after all. But I'll echo what Arx said and say that it's not like he's the only baker in Northern Ireland, or probably even in the city.
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Phmcw

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #2313 on: November 12, 2014, 02:15:53 pm »

Oh, okay, fair enough. Just a tad general, I suppose.

What do people think of this?


I don't think one should be able to refuse buisness of any kind on political or religious ground. That would screw minorities and minoritar views too much.
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Bouchart

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #2314 on: November 12, 2014, 02:16:24 pm »

Oh, okay, fair enough. Just a tad general, I suppose.

What do people think of this?

Given that there's probably a number of bakeries that would make such a cake, I'd say the guy chose this Christian bakery simply to be antagonistic.

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Arx

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #2315 on: November 12, 2014, 02:17:26 pm »

Oh, okay, fair enough. Just a tad general, I suppose.

What do people think of this?


I don't think one should be able to refuse buisness of any kind on political or religious ground. That would screw minorities and minoritar views too much.

But the baker isn't refusing simply because the customer is gay, he's refusing because the customer is asking him to do something specifically against his beliefs.
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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #2316 on: November 12, 2014, 02:22:37 pm »

Yeah, but that's what I'm talking about. An Islam-themed marriagecake would be against his beliefs too.
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TD1

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #2317 on: November 12, 2014, 02:23:39 pm »

Oh, okay, fair enough. Just a tad general, I suppose.

What do people think of this?


I don't think one should be able to refuse buisness of any kind on political or religious ground. That would screw minorities and minoritar views too much.

But the baker isn't refusing simply because the customer is gay, he's refusing because the customer is asking him to do something specifically against his beliefs.

And this is why I believe he shouldn't have to make the cake. I'm not going to be the person who stands between a person and their faith, much as I might have my issues with believing in it in the first place. You go into a Halal butcher and ask them to give you meat that's not Halal, and they may turn you away.
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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #2318 on: November 12, 2014, 02:24:36 pm »

Yeah, but that's what I'm talking about. An Islam-themed marriagecake would be against his beliefs too.

Nowhere in the Christian beliefs does it say anything about not supporting the Islam people. If there is, it's not as express as the Bible's view on Gay Marriage.
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Frumple

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #2319 on: November 12, 2014, 02:25:56 pm »

... whether it's a crime or not depends entirely on the laws in the area in question. There's circumstances in the US where the noted refusal could result in a potential civil case, but it's very niche and has absolutely nothing to do with the convictions of the people involved and absolutely everything to do with contract law and the violation thereof.* I don't know enough (read: I know basically nothing) about that place's law structure, so. Yeah.

I think it was fairly stupid from a business perspective to refuse, though. Money's money, and in this case the amount of influence a single cake can have is basically nil. And the thought that production of something == support of the thing's message is vaguely farcical, imo. Generally, when you've been contracted to do something, you're absolved from most association with the thing afterwards -- responsibility lies primarily with the contractor, not the contractee. Obviously, there's exceptions to that, but they're exceptions that prove the rule and tend to involve grievous bodily harm, not... cake.

But... coming from an american perspective, it's a silly thing. The owner has a right to refuse business on any grounds over here, in most industries. Just as people have equal right to protest, boycott, etc. They're also perfectly able to attempt civil suit against the businesses, they'd just, y'know, fail. But they generally can't really demand folks enter contract with (i.e. sell something to) them.

*Though that does change in certain industries. Public freight, ferex, has no right of refusal, iirc. Package could be wrapped in tear-outs from a homosexual porn magazine and they'd still be legally obligated to transport it, regardless of the convictions of the workers or owners.
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Arx

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #2320 on: November 12, 2014, 02:27:22 pm »

Yeah, but that's what I'm talking about. An Islam-themed marriagecake would be against his beliefs too.

Nope. The issue at stake here is that the Bible specifically says that gay people should be celibate. An Islam-themed wedding cake would be totally fine.
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Frumple

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #2321 on: November 12, 2014, 02:31:34 pm »

Nope. The issue at stake here is that the Bible specifically says that gay people should be celibate.
I'm... pretty sure it doesn't, actually. Specifically say that.

I mean. It's fairly easy to check. There's like seven lines total about homosexuality in the entire thing. And I can't really recall any of them stating appropriate homosexual behavior. Something like three general condemnations (mostly from some of the bughumping crazy bits of the text), and then a roughly equal number of statements against specific forms. That's about it.

We've actually trod over that subject a few times already, I do believe...
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Arx

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #2322 on: November 12, 2014, 02:33:46 pm »

Yup, there are about seven lines, and the first is "A man must not lie with another man as he would lie with a woman." Basically, you can be as gay as you like, just please don't have sex.

And yes, we've been through this. At least twice.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #2323 on: November 12, 2014, 02:36:03 pm »

I'd say there's a pretty big difference between specifically saying gays should be celibate and not condemning gays beyond gay sex.
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Arx

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #2324 on: November 12, 2014, 02:43:48 pm »

If that's in response to me, I think that the only anti-homosexual parts of the Bible that are directly from God (relatively) or Jesus say the same thing, which is what I quoted. The main other one I can remember is Paul in one of his epistles saying "Gay people can't go to heaven!" at the same time as saying "Fat people can't go to heaven", so I'm a little shy of that particular passage.
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