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Yes to both Judeism and Islam

[Cheeetar]

So: Everyone can change their nature, but it's not their nature to change their nature, and we determine our own nature (and we determined our nature to be such that we wouldn't determine our nature to be anything else.) Does that line up with your beliefs, Cryxis?

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

So how's about that (middle eastern?) couple that were recently mirdered by a large mob for supposedly desiccated the (Kuran?) can remember how to properly spell it? They were a Christian couple that were done with the space labor-esq work and wanted to quit, they were put into a holding building at their place of work and a few days later dragged out by a mob and burned alive after being beaten

So: Everyone can change their nature, but it's not their nature to change their nature, and we determine our own nature (and we determined our nature to be such that we wouldn't determine our nature to be anything else.) Does that line up with your beliefs, Cryxis?

(Sorry I got lost in that and yes I know my posts have been equaly confusing, sorry)
Our nature is to sin, we can try to change that nature, but to change our nature is not an easy task and many people decide not to/don't have the will to

There have(has) been people (person) in scripture that gave up their nature of sin

[Cheeetar]

So god made us such that it is incredibly hard not to sin?

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

No he originaly made us with no knowledge of sin (good/evil) then we are of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil and that is what makes it impossibly hard to not sin

[Cheeetar]

So he made us, with no knowledge what good or evil was, and he made some fruit that made it really hard for us to not sin, and then he just sat back and watched after giving us (who had no knowledge of good or evil) a cursory warning not to eat it?

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Yes
And some would argue that our curiosity would have forced us to eat it at one point

But I would like to state that they weren't brain dead, Adam walked the garden with god and had conversations with him. They were also built as fully grown adults IIRC

And as I've stated before they didn't consider eating the fruit until satan (who has been working against god) tempted these two with being given equal power as god if they are the fruit. Sounds great then they ate it and a Pandora's box so to speak open up


PM me if you want to have a private discussion not interrupted by others (no offence to others of course)

[Arcvasti]

The whole Garden thing was an exercise in free will. The way I see it[Please correct me if there's any canonical inaccuracies], is that God/YHWH wanted humanity to be innocent and carefree forever, free from the taint of sin and evil. Lucifer disagreed[For perhaps rather understandable reasons.] and convinced/tricked/badgered[Interestingly, the "snake" described in Genesis, before God cursed it, was a lot more reminiscent of a large legged reptile{IE:Dragony thing}, rather then a traditional serpent.] the first humans to choose knowledge of good and evil. Lucifer "fell" for his actions[According to my church{Not sure how much Biblical evidence we have for it}, that angels, by their nature, once they make an important moral choice, are bound by it forever.] and God exiled the first humans from His Paradise, since it was no longer a suitable habitat for them.

[Lord Shonus]

I was taught that the Tree of Knowledge and the Tree of Life were not "Never eat this", but were "Eat This Later, when I pronounce you ready", and His exiling us from the Garden to prevent Adam and Eve from eating of the Tree Of Life was to give us an escape from the doomed world we had created.

[Orange Wizard]

So, mostly idle speculation here. If Adam and Eve were created with an understanding of good and evil as "what God wants" and "what God doesn't want", then they would have been perfectly aware (especially seeing as God commanded them not to do so under penalty of death) that eating the fruit of the tree was a Bad Idea^TM.
It wasn't until the serpent came along that they started to doubt God (the serpent said God was lying to them IIRC) and eat the fruit. The command given to them was something along the lines of "if you eat it, you will surely die", which they didn't, so it probably means something else. The traditional interpretation is being cut off from God, seeing as after the fall he kicked them out of the garden and didn't really speak to them any more.
Now, this is where I'm getting really speculative, but if we were to reconcile this idea of spiritual death and the apparent lack of free will, could we not then say that free will is a product of a healthy spirit? This ties in nicely with the Reformed idea that nobody has free will (in the sense that they cannot choose to not do evil) until the Holy Spirit regenerates their... spirit. As in, makes it alive again.

Also of note is that (again, in my church's teaching, I can probably find some verses if needed) Adam was made to be the representative of mankind, and he had to make decisions on everyone else's behalf.
I'm also using the term "free will" to mean "the ability to make objective decisions by weighing up the pros and cons of each option". Of course, biblically, this would mean that the result of free will is always God's will, at least in terms of good vs. evil. Choosing between raspberry and blackcurrant jam is kind of a different story.

So, in summary, Adam and Eve had free will until God (or Satan, or whomever, I don't know) stripped them of it as a result of their death in spirit. All of their descendants (read: everybody) is in the same boat, until God makes you alive again, at which point you regain the ability to do Good Stuff^TM, which is pretty much regular good stuff, but done out of a desire to please God.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

So OW do we have the choice to accept god into our lives and rekindle our spirit while our spirit is "dead" and we have no free will?

[Leafsnail]

I always find literalistic interpretations of The Bible fascinating, it's amazing how many arbitrary hoops a supposedly omnipotent being makes himself and others jump through for no reason at all.

[Reudh]

True but it is just another reason that they could


And peoe who believe that please don't take offence, I don't expect you to go and commit atrocities for it but people can use that as an excuse

I was confused for a second and thought you were referring to all the atrocities committed explicitly in the name of Christianity.  Which were logical, merciful acts, under Christian doctrine.  The most merciful act is to convert as many people as possible, even if you have to kill half of them first.  The only reason Christianity as a doctrine co-exists at all nowadays is because it lacks the military support it used to rely on.

Maybe the right religion can scare a murderer out of doing murders.  I don't see how, though.  Christianity teaches that we're all sinners, and none of us can reach heaven unless we become followers of Jesus.  (Because Jesus takes your sin... but only if you join the club).  There's no real reason to stop murdering, you're already "evil" and you already get to go to heaven anyway.

This is the single biggest stumbling block of not just Christianity, but any religion. "If you aren't with us, you're against us." It doesn't smell of omnibenevolence, one of the biggest things that Christianity preaches.

[Gentlefish]

So OW do we have the choice to accept god into our lives and rekindle our spirit while our spirit is "dead" and we have no free will?

And if that's your interpretation, it's not free will when we choose god?

Furthermore, Mr. OW, you make it sound like doing Good Stuff^TM is an instinctive imperative after regaining your life-in-spirit, is it really free will to do so?

[Frumple]

I'd still kinda' like to know at what point in the bible free will is talked about at all. Choice is mentioned, but that's... not quite the same thing. Last I remember doing one of those google verse-search things, nothing explicit, or even strongly indicative (t'me, anyway) actually popped up. If free will doesn't actually have a significant scriptural basis (especially in the face of contradicting messages, as per the omniscience and 'all things by its will' stuff), talking about it re: christianity is kinda' silly, except insofar as it's one of those denominational additives.

A lot of the talk I've heard about it in regards to worship has struck me as one of those non-scriptural PR things. Kinda' like the omnibenevolence (which is blatant bullshit from a biblical perspective -- it's pretty hard to even read mundane benevolence from YWHW).

Though as a general thing, as has been noted, most sorts of free will are kinda' inimical to the whole "knows everything" and "has plan" bits. Not all, but most of the remainder are more than a little unsatisfying. Wozzname's remote-whatever scenario* sorta' stuff.

*For the unaware, it's one of those old questions re: free will: If you do everything of your own choice, but there's some being out in the universe watching you, with a remote on hand that could force you to do whatever they want and the only reason they never use it is because you do what they want anyway... do you have free will? You can't choose to do other than what you end up doing, but it just so happens that you incidentally don't happen to the make the metaphorical "wrong" choices and have your (self-)presumed agency violated. No actual choice, but you don't notice it.

Functionally identical to genuine free will, but considerably less satisfying, ha.

[MonkeyHead]

I see "free will" as Christian "handwavium" to explain why an omnipotent god displays such a lack of obvious power, when both you and I know that if we had omnipotence, we would fuck around like there was no tomorrow.