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No

Only Judeism

Only Islam

Yes to both Judeism and Islam

[Rolan7]

Even better is, you (Orange Wizard) finished clarifying your post between me reading the thread and me hitting reply.  So I was very confused for a second, as I read quoted text which didn't match what I had just seen.

through no fault of their own

I'm going to have to stop you there. If we're going biblically, then "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", "there is no-one who is righteous, not even one", "the wages of sin is death", and so on. If you're really desperate then I can retrieve more verses and references, but as it stands you'd have to disregard a significant portion of the Bible to believe that people are not by nature sinners. Whether or not that's fair, or moral (especially if we consider that it's up to God to save people from the evil that he ordained for them to do in the first place) is another matter entirely, and one I'd prefer not to go in to.

That's biblically true, but I'm not arguing whether the hypothetical heathen is burdened with by sin.  I'm saying they have no path to the salvation which everyone biblically needs.

progressive Christians

In other news, the word "progressive" is one I hear flung around a lot. I think it's an American thing, and as such I have no idea what it's supposed to mean. "Progress" in NZ usually refers to expanding businesses and the like, which doesn't really make sense when applied to religious beliefs.

Ah, sorry.  I meant it to mean "valuing acceptance and equality".  Which might have been specifically American and progressive-biased of me, I honestly don't know.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

We discussed people who have never heard the word of god or know what it is and such and part of it was that if one of those people sees all of what god has created and knows that it had to be something greater that made it then god will attempt to connect with them wether it be a miracle or a mission
Though if god sends a mission it is not garanteed that the person he calls to go on that mission will accept and therefore that person (the one that doesn't know god) will never know god and he will face an eternity in hell though we speculated his punishment would only be an eternity with out god and some other suffering but not nearly as bad as it would be for others

Though we did second guess ourselves because hell is well hell

[Bouchart]

... that's... there's bits in the bible where YWHW actually does force/change what people choose to do? The bit that was shifted from Ra to YWHW was mentioned either in this thread or the broader one -- forcing the Pharaoh to harden his heart and whatnot. Critter's also known for its behavior mangling curses, too... s'pretty explicitly taken choice away from people at times.

Beyond that... was there any mention of scriptural basis for their position?

In Daniel 4:31-33, God forces Nebuchadnezzar to go out and live like a wild animal and graze like a cow for 7 years.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Did he not have the option to not provoke god? If he did then god was punishing him for something he had done

[Frumple]

In Daniel 4:31-33, God forces Nebuchadnezzar to go out and live like a wild animal and graze like a cow for 7 years.

I would like to half-heartedly reiterate my previous statement regarding divine frat members. Even if it didn't make sense on the net, it makes entirely too much sense on many of the specifics.

[Rolan7]

We discussed people who have never heard the word of god or know what it is and such and part of it was that if one of those people sees all of what god has created and knows that it had to be something greater that made it then god will attempt to connect with them wether it be a miracle or a mission
Though if god sends a mission it is not garanteed that the person he calls to go on that mission will accept and therefore that person (the one that doesn't know god) will never know god and he will face an eternity in hell though we speculated his punishment would only be an eternity with out god and some other suffering but not nearly as bad as it would be for others

Though we did second guess ourselves because hell is well hell

That would be easier to believe if Christianity had sprung up in isolated settlements, ever, during recorded history.

Why doesn't your God perform miracles anymore, anyway?  He could convert the entire scientific community with a single simple miracle.  If it's reproducible through experiment, the scientific community will believe it.  That's what truth IS.

As for Hell... yes, it's completely ridiculous.  It's plainly just a stick meant to scare people into the group-think, and to encourage compassionate people to "save" others.  Or, if you're right, it's a horrible fate for 70% of the world.  Far more, depending on your denomination.

[Frumple]

As for Hell... yes, it's completely ridiculous.

It's also almost completely undescribed within the text itself, for what that's worth. A lot of the modern conceptualizations of hell and how people interact with it are... kinda' fabricated, or at the very least blown massively out of proportion to the text itself and with lots of extra bits just tacked on mostly randomly.

Bit like how Satan gets treated, honestly. Both seem to have mostly become PR beatsticks over the course of history.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

He doesn't perform miracles anymore?
Ok I suppose not on the scale of what they used to be but isn't the point of a miracle to not be something you can repeat over and over?
I mean the point of a miracle was to be miraculaous and not normal so even if he did do a miracle they wouldn't believe it if it happened as you said because if it is reproducible then they can just say it was "natural" or that it didn't require a god to do






As for hell the large part of the punishment that is textual is eternal seperation from god which is the biggest punishment possible once you realize he exists (I say this as in when you die you realize this and I'm saying this as my belief not that you are going to instantly agree with me)

[Rolan7]

He doesn't perform miracles anymore?
Ok I suppose not on the scale of what they used to be but isn't the point of a miracle to not be something you can repeat over and over?
I mean the point of a miracle was to be miraculaous and not normal so even if he did do a miracle they wouldn't believe it if it happened as you said because if it is reproducible then they can just say it was "natural" or that it didn't require a god to do

No, the point of a miracle was always to convince people of God's existence.  Right up to the point of scientific thought and the idea of verifying things through experimentation - then suddenly miracles began to disappear.  The more closely we examine reality, the fewer miracles we see.  Being tricksy and untestable wasn't part of the definition, it was added once we realized they were *unprovable*.

As for hell the large part of the punishment that is textual is eternal seperation from god which is the biggest punishment possible once you realize he exists (I say this as in when you die you realize this and I'm saying this as my belief not that you are going to instantly agree with me)

Yes, that is what the soft-sell Mormons told me.  I think it is what many soft-hearted Christians believe in order to live with themselves.

It is a ploy of the modern age.  The bible is clear, nonbelievers will roast forever, and we all deserve it.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Yes all non believers must suffer hell but the largest punishment isn't hell fire but the seperatipn from god

[Frumple]

It is a ploy of the modern age.  The bible is clear, nonbelievers will roast forever, and we all deserve it.

That's... actually part of the point I was making. Unless I missed some bits, the bible actually isn't clear that nonbelievers will roast forever. Parts of it say things along those lines, but parts of it don't. Iirc, it's not clear that anyone will roast forever, or anything. Or even whether or not all sinners will roast, since there's three or four different conceptualizations of hell (fire, darkness, separation, destruction, and probably others). Or if there is a hell of fire at all and one of the other end-states for the unsaved (like that outside the city thing in revelations) isn't going to be what happens.

The bible is very much unclear on quite a few things, really. Is part of why we have so many and often so radically different denominations, ha.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

The more important part isn't what hell is (we all know that it's just not a good place)
It's that belief in Jesus Christ dieing for your sins and paying for your sins as the final sacrifice and that belief will give you eternity with god
Not believing that, especialy with having heard/seen about it you will suffer hell- an eternal seperation from god

[smjjames]

The more important part isn't what hell is (we all know that it's just not a good place)
It's that belief in Jesus Christ dieing for your sins and paying for your sins as the final sacrifice and that belief will give you eternity with god
Not believing that, especialy with having heard/seen about it you will suffer hell- an eternal seperation from god

So, pretty much as things were?

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Yes

Earth is techniqaly a non eternal hell

Here we have the choice to make our connection with god and if we don't we go straight to the eternal hell
Which is supposed to be much worse than earth considering that there is no option for reconnection

[Aedel]

If Earth is Hell, then... Wouldn't Hell not be a punishment? If you don't connect to God in the first place, you lose nothing. It'd just be a reincarnation.

Heh. Maybe thats where all those reincarnation beliefs come from. Its people dying and going to Hell. AKA right back to Earth.