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[scrdest]

Theologically prayer doesn't make sense to me because of what Dwarfy said, but also experimentally it hasn't really shown that it works. Hell, it could even make things worse, if you know you are being prayed for, the potential stress of trying to live up to that

I'll find it somewhere one day but there was a study on people submitted to the hospital with a life threatening condition or some other and half were being prayed for by a church and the other half weren't
The ones being prayed for had like a 30% higher rate of survival IIRC

If we're talking about the same study, STEP/Templeton, lower, actually, if they knew about that, or the same if they didn't. Seven percent more complications/mortality than those who were prayed for but didn't know that and eight percent for those who weren't.

Most of the other ones did not find any improvement whatsoever, or had rather questionable methodology.

[TD1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_intercessory_prayer

From that:

Meta-studies of the literature in the field have been performed showing evidence only for no effect or a potentially small effect. For instance, a 2006 meta analysis on 14 studies concluded that there is "no discernible effect" while a 2007 systemic review of intercessory prayer reported inconclusive results, noting that 7 of 17 studies had "small, but significant, effect sizes" but the review noted that the most methodologically rigorous studies failed to produce significant findings

[Cthulhu]

If it was her time to die, God wouldn't care about your praying. She would have a 0/0 chance.

And if God wanted her to die in agony, as he so often seems to wish on death beds, she would again stand a 0/0 chance of painless death. It's what God wants...you praying won't change his mind.

I'm trying not to be angry at this but you're starting to piss me off with this

God did what we prayed for even though it wasn't what we hopped for

Getting angry about it seems...

I've never really understood intercessory prayer either.  We're talking about a omniscient omnipotent being who, by definition, already knows what you're going to pray and has considered every angle.  It's really like standing in front of an avalanche and asking it really nicely to stop, or trying to reason with the tides.  An actual deity is so far beyond your experience that I don't see any point praying to it. 

In literally any instance from praying for God to save your kid from cancer to praying for God to make your car start, God has already (even that word is inadequate because an omniscient omnipotent doesn't operate chronologically) come to a more thorough and concrete decision than you could come to if you had your entire life to contemplate it.  You're either not going to get what you wanted because God's predetermined choice is not aligned with your wishes, and you're going to say something like "Well it was God's will" or you are going to get what you wanted because God's predetermined choice is aligned with your wishes, and you're going to imagine that your prayer had some effect on it when it didn't.

[scrdest]

Actually, how do we know God's power is, in fact, extratemporal? I know the Greek term used for 'omnipotent', pantokrator, implies power and rulership over everything, but not 'all-powerfulness' in the 'can do literally anything possible or not' sense.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

There are millions of possibilities and prayer can change what happens
God knows all things that were, all things that are, and all things that CAN be
He doesn't just know what is going to happen he knows the billion other ways it can play out
Prayer can have an effect

And thanks for basicaly stomping my beliefs to death

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Prayer can have an effect

The evidence disagrees.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Prayer can have an effect

The evidence disagrees.

I believe other wise and if I remember correctly I've said no stomping out a persons beliefs
I've witnessed it's effects in multiple cases and I don't need to justify myself

[Cheeetar]

Prayer can have an effect

The evidence disagrees.

I believe other wise and if I remember correctly I've said no stomping out a persons beliefs
I've witnessed it's effects in multiple cases and I don't need to justify myself

See, that's where you'd be wrong (if you want anybody to ever believe you.)

[Ultimuh]

And.. I'm out of this thread.
I see only flames ahead.

[Cheeetar]

And.. I'm out of this thread.
I see only flames ahead.

I appreciate you telling us you were leaving the thread and why. We'd miss you if you left without saying, Ultimuh.

[Rolan7]

He's right though, it'll be great if this remains chill.

Prayer can help people work through problems, the same way talking to another person can.  It's an important part of some people's fellowship, and that fellowship has tangible effects - including helping people recover from illnesses.

Any supernatural aspect has yet to be demonstrated, though.  It's a shame - if prayer did have measurable effects on unaware targets, we'd be on the brink of a massive discovery.  Whether it be theological, or psionic, or maybe extraterrestrial...  Sadly, faith healing is "just" psychological healing.  Which can help a lot, both the afflicted and the people in their lives.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Sorry for being irritable
The latter half of today isn't going well


And I honestly don't care what people think on my beliefs on prayer as long as they don't try to shove it down my throat that I'm wrong


As for my experiences
I've witnessed not being killed while stuck on the side of the road after an ice storm (didn't freeze to death and a car the lost control got way too close to hitting us)
I've witnessed dramatic health changes
I've had my own experiences where prayer helped with personal problems
Prayer pulled me out of depression
I could continue my list but I'm not

[Frumple]

Yeaaahh... I think the point being made is you would have experienced that regardless to who, or what, you were praying to and... quite possibly if you weren't praying at all. People all over the world have experienced the same sort of things, both in and not in the presence of religious (or otherwise) prayer. One of those correlation =/= causation things. Hell, as a minor personal example, simple meditation (which, functionally, religious prayer is just a methodology thereof) did a tremendous amount to help me psychologically when I was younger, and to this day I often use a simple (and, frankly, mangled) buddhist mantra (that I can no longer even recall what is supposed to mean) to help focus and work through rough spots. It's often not the meaning that's important, but the method.

Reason it's actually worrying to some people is because, beyond the conceptual or theoretical aspects of it, a strong emphasis on prayer... gets people killed. Regularly. Because folks will trust prayer more than actual action... turn to faith healing instead of a doctor, and whatnot. And for every one that does that and sees results... many, many more don't. I'd be the first person to express approval for meditative practices -- including prayer -- but also the among first to warn against attributing more to the practice than is appropriate, yeah.

I guess the half-point is that you're very welcome to express your belief in the practice, just... expect people to also express their concerns, y'know?

As the aside, I've always been fond of the conceptualization of prayer as a thing expressed through action, instead of words -- that you express your love for and belief in the divine through good works instead of a bowed head and mumbled benedictions. From the christian perspective, one could say that when one walks with Christ, every step is a benediction to the glory of the lord, every hand extended in mercy a hymnal to the righteous path. To speak of christ is to of very little... weight, y'know? Comparatively. Kind words are a lesser thing than a kind shoulder to lean on. Occasionally all there is to be done is offer words, but... in that case, instead of offering words to the sky, offer an arm to those near -- better the world around you when you cannot better the world afar. Through that is message of rightfulness made manifest...

... I haven't actually seen that sort of thing very often on the ground, though

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Wait do you think I just pray and ignore those I pray for?

Also I still don't care what others say, including all of you, prayer helped me out of depression and I believes it has saved my life among others.
And yes part of prayer is acting and not expecting god to do it for you, but when you are in a position where you have no control I believe god can help you if you extend a simple prayer
I was trapped in a car in the middle of winter with my sister and her friend
We were freezing cold and the two truck was another 2 hours wait
The car battery was almost dead so no heater and a car that lost control almost hit us
Going fast enlighten that all of us would have probably died
Before that I was praying and praying and praying
I didn't die

I believe on prayer and could care less about sentiments against it

[Gentlefish]

So this whole discussion just reminded me of this song.