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Only Judeism

Only Islam

Yes to both Judeism and Islam

[Orange Wizard]

Because they can't, you silly goose. There's lot of people who believe that flashy miracles will make people convert.

[Frumple]

Not much of a contest.

Hey, it was apparently a big enough issue for YWHW to get off its arse and do something, and then have its followers violently murder a few hundred people. Sounds like someone thought something was there, anyway.

Though yeah, it's also possible YWHW has cut down on that sort of thing in the present-ish time because we would execute people that get up to that sort of shit, broadly speaking. Mass murder is harder to get away with, these days, miracle or no miracle. Far from impossible, but it doesn't really win you (as) much in the way of brownie points anymore.

[smjjames]

Actually, in Reformed doctrine, the fruit of the tree took away free will, at least in a general sense.

...

That said, it looks like YWHW actually had a straight up contest with another god (Baal?) over control of the rain at some point? And apparently some other stuff *shrugs*

The one where a dozen or so high priests of Baal spent hours in prayer and cutting themselves to get Baal to light a tinder-dry bonfire, and Elijah (or possibly Elishah, it's been a while since I read this) soaked the bonfire in water, asked God nicely, and the sopping-wet logs became a conflagration?

Not much of a contest.

Heh, he could have just thrown on a whole bunch of clear flammable substance. Not sure about ignition, but we don't know the circumstances and environment that the whole thing took place in.

[Orange Wizard]

On a hill in the middle of nowhere? The water was also (IIRC, I may be mistaken) provided by the priests of Baal.

[Bohandas]

Not to mention the basic construction of the human body* and construction of the hum mind** that no designer in his right mind would create so poorly, let alone an omniscient one.


*(only bi-pedal species on earth, and thus prone to back pains! Blind-spot in our eyes from a backwards eyeball (who puts the nerve connections to the brains on the *inside* of the orb, requiring you to leave a hole in the light-sensitive cells in order to get those nerves out to the brain? Especially since there are species where it's done right, Octopii I think...) and many other problems, like hip issues or fallen arches, again from bi-pedalism, or various organs prone to damage or failings like the appendix or the liver)

Don't forget air and food going down the same tube, thus creating the risk of choking.

Furthermore, it would be largely his fault that the pro-choice movement which he opposes so much has as much momentum as it does, given that the case in favor of abortion stems largely from the fact that we start our lives as endoparasites. You don't need to destroy an egg to not carry it around.

[smjjames]

On a hill in the middle of nowhere? The water was also (IIRC, I may be mistaken) provided by the priests of Baal.

Chemical reaction then? I'm thinking along the lines of phosphorous or sodium, but there's others that he might know about.

[Orange Wizard]

It's a pointless argument in any case. If you want to discredit the prophets in the Bible, there are much more effective tactics than "he used his knowledge of modern chemistry to perform miracles".

[MonkeyHead]

You can start with how the Bible is generally not a great historic resource, for a variety of reasons. An influential work of literature, sure. Culturally signifigant, yep. But not a historical record for the most part.

[Orange Wizard]

That's true, actually. I especially like the story where the Israelites destroy a city that doesn't exist.

[Arcvasti]

That's true, actually. I especially like the story where the Israelites destroy a city that doesn't exist.

Must have worked really well then.

[Descan]

Even assumin' that the fire thing even happened, a perfectly possible series of events was that a lightning bolt or something hit the fire, people attributed it to god, and thus god won. Then the story evolved to make it even MORE awesome (IT WAS EVEN SOGGY WOOD!) and omitted the lightning bolt, and voila~

[Graknorke]

Even assumin' that the fire thing even happened, a perfectly possible series of events was that a lightning bolt or something hit the fire, people attributed it to god, and thus god won. Then the story evolved to make it even MORE awesome (IT WAS EVEN SOGGY WOOD!) and omitted the lightning bolt, and voila~

You're missing the fact that the other fire still lit. So the Baal worshippers had something right.

[Orange Wizard]

No, it didn't? Hang on, I'll dig out the verse.

Spoiler: Found it. 1 Kings. (click to show/hide)

20So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel. 21Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him.”

But the people said nothing.

22Then Elijah said to them, “I am the only one of the Lord’s prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. 23Get two bulls for us. Let Baal’s prophets choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. 24Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord. The god who answers by fire—he is God.”

Then all the people said, “What you say is good.”

25Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire.” 26So they took the bull given them and prepared it.

Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. “Baal, answer us!” they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.

27At noon Elijah began to taunt them. “Shout louder!” he said. “Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened.” 28So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.

30Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come here to me.” They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the Lord, which had been torn down. 31Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the Lord had come, saying, “Your name shall be Israel.” 32With the stones he built an altar in the name of the Lord, and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahsa of seed. 33He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, “Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood.”

34“Do it again,” he said, and they did it again.

“Do it a third time,” he ordered, and they did it the third time. 35The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench.

36At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37Answer me, Lord, answer me, so these people will know that you, Lord, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again.”

38Then the fire of the Lord fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.

39When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The Lord—he is God! The Lord—he is God!”

40Then Elijah commanded them, “Seize the prophets of Baal. Don’t let anyone get away!” They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there.

TL;DR: Prophets of Baal couldn't light a fire, Elijah burned up water and stones and soil.

[Uristides]

Re. miracles all that stuff about cool stuff not happening anymore today: it reminds me of The Great Inquisitor, a chapter in Dostoevsky's the Brothers Karamazov. The chapter is so good(and long) it's even been published individually IIRC.
It's been ages since I read that so the details are a bit murky, but anyway, the whole chapter is a big trip with one of the characters having a chat with Satan. One of the things the devil says is that the interpretation for the temptations in the desert is that Jesus was given the chance to either make all the flashy things happen and thus rule mankind through the power of miracle, shackling everybody to its power(because nobody in their sane mind is gonna reject god when his son is around and constantly making it rain bread) or leave earth and let men have free will by having room for doubt. Spoiler: Jesus eventually chose the latter(He also dies. For a while.) and that's why we don't have all that crazy OT stuff anymore.

[Graknorke]

No, it didn't? Hang on, I'll dig out the verse.

No need, I'm wrong. That's what I get for trusting things people post on Bay12 over my own memory.