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No

Only Judeism

Only Islam

Yes to both Judeism and Islam

[scrdest]

How do beings without free will choose to rebel? Would that not require free will?

Angels actually had free will prior to the fall after that god stripped them of their free will and they were left on whatever side they were on after that

Huh, that counts?  Would be nice of him to do that for people who are currently saved - then they won't be at risk from doubt anymore.

Not sure why he removed the free will from the bad angels though, preventing them from ever repenting.  I guess he hated them like he hated the Pharaoh.

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD.

I've always thought this part of Exodus was particularly creepy.  Pharoah's trying to let the Israelites go, but God mind-controls him into being a villain... to punish the Egyptians.

Apparently, the original had Ra or some other Egyptian god instead of the LORD in the part about hardening hearts. It's one of those passages that lend support to the idea that Jews were initially monolatrous, rather than monotheistic (i.e. believe many gods exist, but serve only one of them).

[TD1]

That's interesting...so God was...what, of the same stuff as the Egyptian Gods? Might heighten the spread potential, I guess, if they don't immediately say "your gods are false!"

[Helgoland]

Can't the commandment about not worshippiing other gods be read to imply the existence of other gods as well?

[freeformschooler]

Can't the commandment about not worshippiing other gods be read to imply the existence of other gods as well?

You could say the same thing about the biblical mentions of Zeus, Baal, or pretty much any other thing in the Bible referring to other gods worshipped at the time.

[Graknorke]

Apparently, the original had Ra or some other Egyptian god instead of the LORD in the part about hardening hearts. It's one of those passages that lend support to the idea that Jews were initially monolatrous, rather than monotheistic (i.e. believe many gods exist, but serve only one of them).

And then comes gratuitous retconning.

[Frumple]

Technically, I don't think that commandment even precludes the worship of other gods (mind you, other parts of the bible do). Just that YWHW must be above all others in your consideration. Depends on what the original meant by what was translated into "before", and whether that meant, y'know, in higher esteem, or more along the lines of "in front of", i.e. where YWHW can see (which is everywhere, generally).

That said, it looks like YWHW actually had a straight up contest with another god (Baal?) over control of the rain at some point? And apparently some other stuff *shrugs*

[Uristides]

TL;DR Satan is a pretty chill dude, at the very least I'm more apt to want to hang out and chill for eternity with the Red one rather than the Bearded one, even if it'd be a tad warm. Just seems like he's a bit less... insane.

Also, I'm trying to tone it down a little here, because of the sensitivity in the thread and about the topic. So uh, if you think I'm being insulting or something, that was not the intention? I'd appreciate at least a second thought, a second read, yeah? Not a knee-jerk reaction.

This. In my own untheology Santa is a really cool guy, if a bit confrontative, and hell is just a place not much worse than earth(you lose all the nice christians and that's all) where people who can't swallow God get to afterlive their afterlives in relative peace. Because God in his infinite wisdom clearly saw that not everybody was fit for an existence of eternal and unconditional devotion, so fine, you can settle down in hell and try out your own thing. More of a choice than a punishment.

And huh, yeah, sorry if I'm being too heretical here too.

[timferius]

I can't remember, but doesn't the pharoh actually perform a few minor miracles himself? Not sure if this was read, or seen in one of the several movie versions of that story though.

[Arx]

Pharoah's magicians are able to replicate some of God's signs, yes.

The Bible is actually, IIRC, pretty vague on hell. There is torture involved though, as evidenced by Lazarus and the Rich Man - Luke 16:19. My Bible notes that 'hell' can be translated as 'Hades'; perhaps some kind of Asphodel exists as well, which is like earth without God?,

[Gentlefish]

@Cryxis, I know this is a... liiitle late... But God did not give us free will. It was the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that gave us free will.

@Descan, birds are bipedal, too

[TD1]

How could we choose to eat without free will?

[Orange Wizard]

Actually, in Reformed doctrine, the fruit of the tree took away free will, at least in a general sense.

...

That said, it looks like YWHW actually had a straight up contest with another god (Baal?) over control of the rain at some point? And apparently some other stuff *shrugs*

The one where a dozen or so high priests of Baal spent hours in prayer and cutting themselves to get Baal to light a tinder-dry bonfire, and Elijah (or possibly Elishah, it's been a while since I read this) soaked the bonfire in water, asked God nicely, and the sopping-wet logs became a conflagration?

Not much of a contest.

[TD1]

Yes, but how many believers can do that type of thing nowadays?

[Orange Wizard]

... that's not really the point.

[TD1]

No, but it's my current point. All the biblical stuff happened, well, in Biblical times. There are plenty of cases where a helpful miracle could help convert people to the true faith, nowadays. Why do no missionaries light bonfires to disprove the existence of Vishnu, or somesuch?