Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

No

Only Judeism

Only Islam

Yes to both Judeism and Islam

[TD1]

Christianity is not the cause of violence, just the excuse used. Here in Northern Ireland, it's not really Catholic Vs Protestant, it's Unionist Vs Republican. The real argument is about nationality. All religious disputes tend to be influenced by much more worldly things. King Philip II of Spain was friendly with Elizabeth I despite the fact that she was Protestant, because she was a useful pawn against the French. It was politics that motivated the future "religious" dispute. It was just a tool used to justify, but if not Christianity, King Philip could equally have used the fact that Elizabeth had been attacking his trade routes. That would not have ensured any support from Christendom, though.

So Philip would have done it anyway, to get England and surround France, and to increase his Empire. Religion was only a means to an end.

The entire thing being open to interpretation makes it a result of the times, not the religion. If there is a large surge of hatred for Fig Trees, the burning of that said tree will be bandied about and thus we'll justify burning them all down. But we would have done anyway, because we hated the Fig Trees. Religion just made it more palatable.

Yes, religion does go some way to creating an in-out group mentality, but so does culture. So does gender. So does race. So does the size of your salary. Rolan was stating that the religion is inherently wrong. It has so many messages of hate. I was stating that, when you get down to it, it's not the religion but the people. If a people decide to hate, they will. If they decide to love, they will drag out the appropriate verses, and they will love.

[Graknorke]

Religion was only a means to an end.

Being a means to an end doesn't mean something is good. I mean, you could say the same thing about a literal tool like a gun in the role of a murder. I don't know about you but I'd still prefer people weren't waving guns around all over the place just because they could kill some other way.

And now because of a wording I completely forgot whatever I came into here for.

[TD1]

Alright, more to the point, Religion was only a justification for an end.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Its in interpretation for Satan's motives, most aren't put in there but its not hard to assume he hates us considering god loves us enough to give us free choice unlike the angels who were basically taken away any free will they had before the fall and were eternally stuck wherever they fell at that moment

That last bit is explicitly inaccurate -- Satan, one of the fallen, is straight up noted to be wandering around the earth long after its fall.

As for the assumption bit, not only is it quite hard to assume satan hates humanity -- when by actual account, it is subservient to YWHW's will and no more likely to hate mankind than YWHW is -- stating that assumption is something I would probably say is incredibly dangerous for a mindful christian to do. Character defamation without actual evidence is almost certainly something that's going to trigger the whole "false witness" thing.

Seriously. Attribute to it what it does and what is said of it, and no more, y'know? Which isn't actually all that much.

When I said stuck where they were i meant on there siding with god or Satan
and I should specify it is part of my belief that Satan absolutely detests humanity and wants them all to suffer the same fate that he will after the rapture, an eternity in hell.

[TD1]

How do beings without free will choose to rebel? Would that not require free will?

[Rolan7]

Yes, religion does go some way to creating an in-out group mentality, but so does culture. So does gender. So does race. So does the size of your salary.

It's worse than an in-out group mentality, it's a mentality where the only way to rescue people from eternal suffering is to convert them.  Using whatever means work best - violence, kindness, reasoning, whichever.  All that matters is converting people, for their own sake.

My point isn't about the inconsistent messages of love and hate, it's about the intolerance that forms the core of the entire system.  To tolerate someone is to let them stay damned.  Which is how it gets the kindest and most generous people in the world to spend their lives spreading it.

Alright, more to the point, Religion was only a justification for an end.

It unified people under a common goal of conversion and assimilation of others.  People with less viral belief systems couldn't maintain empires, and weren't compelled by their faith to try.  (The Romans had a viral belief system too, Romanizing natives into citizens in the name of civilization).

[Frumple]

and I should specify it is part of my belief that Satan absolutely detests humanity and wants them all to suffer the same fate that he will after the rapture, an eternity in hell.

Well... okay. All I'm really noting is I'm not finding a scriptural basis for that belief. Which I think I've mentioned previously doesn't entirely bother me -- people have made plenty of junk up over the years.

[TD1]

It unified people under a common goal of conversion and assimilation of others.

Did it? It maybe unified the common people, but again, a tool of justification. King Philip didn't particularly care about conversion when Elizabeth was useful against the French.

[Graknorke]

When I said stuck where they were i meant on there siding with god or Satan
and I should specify it is part of my belief that Satan absolutely detests humanity and wants them all to suffer the same fate that he will after the rapture, an eternity in hell.

Oh right, that reminds me.
I don't know if it was just in Islam (I seem to remember that it might be, but I'm not sure), Satan was condemned for not wanting to kneel before humanity. Which to me sounds like quite a fair thing to not want to do. I mean, humans are inferior in every way to angels apart from being God's favourites. Not to mention that there are concerns with treating angels as literally sub-human, if they are at least sentient enough to object to being treated as such.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

How do beings without free will choose to rebel? Would that not require free will?

Angels actually had free will prior to the fall after that god stripped them of their free will and they were left on whatever side they were on after that

[Frumple]

@ grak: Yeah, that seems to be Islam. Allah also more or less gave the critter a thumbs up to wander around and test mankind and angel alike until the day of judgment.

@ cryx: ... where does it say that?

[Rolan7]

How do beings without free will choose to rebel? Would that not require free will?

Angels actually had free will prior to the fall after that god stripped them of their free will and they were left on whatever side they were on after that

Huh, that counts?  Would be nice of him to do that for people who are currently saved - then they won't be at risk from doubt anymore.

Not sure why he removed the free will from the bad angels though, preventing them from ever repenting.  I guess he hated them like he hated the Pharaoh.

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD.

I've always thought this part of Exodus was particularly creepy.  Pharoah's trying to let the Israelites go, but God mind-controls him into being a villain... to punish the Egyptians.

[TD1]

@ cryx: ... where does it say that?

+1

If it's true, I never knew that.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

@ cryx: ... where does it say that?

+1

If it's true, I never knew that.

I'll ask tonight

[Descan]

Spoiler:  re: Satan! (click to show/hide)

Personally, Satan seems to be a much nicer person to humans than God ever was.

I mean, dudes reviled by everyone, but all he ever wanted to do was open humanities eyes (Tree of Knowledge after all, at least if you believe that the snake was Satan and not just a weird explanation of why snakes don't have legs) and he doesn't require you to do *anything* to come to his digs, he'll let anyone in. He takes the scraps of humanity that God, the creator of humanity and of each individual person, doesn't want. I say "scraps" but I mean "vast majority" so, you know, there's that.

Meanwhile, God's the creator of the universe but either is incompetent or malicious, because in terms of it's construction, it's a tad... lethal. And in horrifying ways. Either that or humans were an after-thought and the universe was instead constructed as a giant elemental furnace or something? Seems pretty good at that part, and not very overly complicated to do so.

Not to mention the basic construction of the human body* and construction of the human mind** that no designer in his right mind would create so poorly, let alone an omniscient one.

Then there's the whole issue with salvation requiring you to believe without evidence while making a universe unlocked pretty much entirely by only believing things with evidence to be true, seems a bit weird to be split about like that. Or there's also the issue of hell... Existing, like at all? And especially sending people *to* hell for not believing, both because of the weird double-issue there, and because holy crap there is literally no way you can call yourself a good being if your reaction to "Eh, I'm not sure you exist..." is "THEN BURN FOR ETERNITY!"

*(only bi-pedal species on earth, and thus prone to back pains! Blind-spot in our eyes from a backwards eyeball (who puts the nerve connections to the brains on the *inside* of the orb, requiring you to leave a hole in the light-sensitive cells in order to get those nerves out to the brain? Especially since there are species where it's done right, Octopii I think...) and many other problems, like hip issues or fallen arches, again from bi-pedalism, or various organs prone to damage or failings like the appendix or the liver)

**(depression! schizophrenia! memory issues, irrational biases inherent to the species, harmful tendencies, etc)

AND even if you were to just use biblical evidence for their various tendencies, as opposed to popular conceptions and theological philosophy (I know most protestants tend to prefer to stick purely with the bible, so whatever) from what I know, Satan (or things that could BE Satan or working for him, even if not named properly or just not named at all) is still a pretty good dude. Was mostly about testing people and such. Plus makin' bets with God, Job and all, you know. Meanwhile God's got the whole genocide and torture thing, as well as the "ON YOUR KNEES, PEASANT!" attitude with even his supposedly chosen people, and the whole "I'm literally going to kill you in the hundreds of thousands, but you're still my chosen people!" thing... He's kind of an asshole.

TL;DR Satan is a pretty chill dude, at the very least I'm more apt to want to hang out and chill for eternity with the Red one rather than the Bearded one, even if it'd be a tad warm. Just seems like he's a bit less... insane.

Also, I'm trying to tone it down a little here, because of the sensitivity in the thread and about the topic. So uh, if you think I'm being insulting or something, that was not the intention? I'd appreciate at least a second thought, a second read, yeah? Not a knee-jerk reaction.