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Should other religions be added to this thread?

No
Only Judeism
Only Islam
Yes to both Judeism and Islam

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Author Topic: Christian beliefs and discussion  (Read 192782 times)

TD1

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1770 on: October 29, 2014, 10:41:23 am »

Christianity is not the cause of violence, just the excuse used. Here in Northern Ireland, it's not really Catholic Vs Protestant, it's Unionist Vs Republican. The real argument is about nationality. All religious disputes tend to be influenced by much more worldly things. King Philip II of Spain was friendly with Elizabeth I despite the fact that she was Protestant, because she was a useful pawn against the French. It was politics that motivated the future "religious" dispute. It was just a tool used to justify, but if not Christianity, King Philip could equally have used the fact that Elizabeth had been attacking his trade routes. That would not have ensured any support from Christendom, though.

So Philip would have done it anyway, to get England and surround France, and to increase his Empire. Religion was only a means to an end.

The entire thing being open to interpretation makes it a result of the times, not the religion. If there is a large surge of hatred for Fig Trees, the burning of that said tree will be bandied about and thus we'll justify burning them all down. But we would have done anyway, because we hated the Fig Trees. Religion just made it more palatable.

Yes, religion does go some way to creating an in-out group mentality, but so does culture. So does gender. So does race. So does the size of your salary. Rolan was stating that the religion is inherently wrong. It has so many messages of hate. I was stating that, when you get down to it, it's not the religion but the people. If a people decide to hate, they will. If they decide to love, they will drag out the appropriate verses, and they will love.
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Graknorke

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1771 on: October 29, 2014, 11:01:19 am »

Religion was only a means to an end.
Being a means to an end doesn't mean something is good. I mean, you could say the same thing about a literal tool like a gun in the role of a murder. I don't know about you but I'd still prefer people weren't waving guns around all over the place just because they could kill some other way.

And now because of a wording I completely forgot whatever I came into here for.
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TD1

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1772 on: October 29, 2014, 11:07:52 am »

Alright, more to the point, Religion was only a justification for an end.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1773 on: October 29, 2014, 11:09:14 am »

Its in interpretation for Satan's motives, most aren't put in there but its not hard to assume he hates us considering god loves us enough to give us free choice unlike the angels who were basically taken away any free will they had before the fall and were eternally stuck wherever they fell at that moment
That last bit is explicitly inaccurate -- Satan, one of the fallen, is straight up noted to be wandering around the earth long after its fall.

As for the assumption bit, not only is it quite hard to assume satan hates humanity -- when by actual account, it is subservient to YWHW's will and no more likely to hate mankind than YWHW is -- stating that assumption is something I would probably say is incredibly dangerous for a mindful christian to do. Character defamation without actual evidence is almost certainly something that's going to trigger the whole "false witness" thing.

Seriously. Attribute to it what it does and what is said of it, and no more, y'know? Which isn't actually all that much.

When I said stuck where they were i meant on there siding with god or Satan
and I should specify it is part of my belief that Satan absolutely detests humanity and wants them all to suffer the same fate that he will after the rapture, an eternity in hell.
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TD1

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1774 on: October 29, 2014, 11:11:34 am »

How do beings without free will choose to rebel? Would that not require free will?
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Rolan7

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1775 on: October 29, 2014, 11:22:53 am »

Yes, religion does go some way to creating an in-out group mentality, but so does culture. So does gender. So does race. So does the size of your salary.
It's worse than an in-out group mentality, it's a mentality where the only way to rescue people from eternal suffering is to convert them.  Using whatever means work best - violence, kindness, reasoning, whichever.  All that matters is converting people, for their own sake.

My point isn't about the inconsistent messages of love and hate, it's about the intolerance that forms the core of the entire system.  To tolerate someone is to let them stay damned.  Which is how it gets the kindest and most generous people in the world to spend their lives spreading it.

Alright, more to the point, Religion was only a justification for an end.
It unified people under a common goal of conversion and assimilation of others.  People with less viral belief systems couldn't maintain empires, and weren't compelled by their faith to try.  (The Romans had a viral belief system too, Romanizing natives into citizens in the name of civilization).
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Frumple

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1776 on: October 29, 2014, 11:28:04 am »

and I should specify it is part of my belief that Satan absolutely detests humanity and wants them all to suffer the same fate that he will after the rapture, an eternity in hell.
Well... okay. All I'm really noting is I'm not finding a scriptural basis for that belief. Which I think I've mentioned previously doesn't entirely bother me -- people have made plenty of junk up over the years.
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TD1

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1777 on: October 29, 2014, 11:37:29 am »

Quote
It unified people under a common goal of conversion and assimilation of others.

Did it? It maybe unified the common people, but again, a tool of justification. King Philip didn't particularly care about conversion when Elizabeth was useful against the French.
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Graknorke

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1778 on: October 29, 2014, 11:43:10 am »

When I said stuck where they were i meant on there siding with god or Satan
and I should specify it is part of my belief that Satan absolutely detests humanity and wants them all to suffer the same fate that he will after the rapture, an eternity in hell.
Oh right, that reminds me.
I don't know if it was just in Islam (I seem to remember that it might be, but I'm not sure), Satan was condemned for not wanting to kneel before humanity. Which to me sounds like quite a fair thing to not want to do. I mean, humans are inferior in every way to angels apart from being God's favourites. Not to mention that there are concerns with treating angels as literally sub-human, if they are at least sentient enough to object to being treated as such.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1779 on: October 29, 2014, 11:50:42 am »

How do beings without free will choose to rebel? Would that not require free will?

Angels actually had free will prior to the fall after that god stripped them of their free will and they were left on whatever side they were on after that
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Frumple

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1780 on: October 29, 2014, 11:53:44 am »

@ grak: Yeah, that seems to be Islam. Allah also more or less gave the critter a thumbs up to wander around and test mankind and angel alike until the day of judgment.

@ cryx: ... where does it say that?
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Rolan7

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1781 on: October 29, 2014, 12:03:31 pm »

How do beings without free will choose to rebel? Would that not require free will?

Angels actually had free will prior to the fall after that god stripped them of their free will and they were left on whatever side they were on after that
Huh, that counts?  Would be nice of him to do that for people who are currently saved - then they won't be at risk from doubt anymore.

Not sure why he removed the free will from the bad angels though, preventing them from ever repenting.  I guess he hated them like he hated the Pharaoh.

Quote from: Exodus 10:20
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
Quote from: Exodus 10:27
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.
Quote from: Exodus 11:10
And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.
Quote from: Exodus 14:4
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD.
I've always thought this part of Exodus was particularly creepy.  Pharoah's trying to let the Israelites go, but God mind-controls him into being a villain... to punish the Egyptians.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 12:05:44 pm by Rolan7 »
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TD1

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1782 on: October 29, 2014, 12:04:05 pm »

@ cryx: ... where does it say that?

+1

If it's true, I never knew that.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1783 on: October 29, 2014, 12:20:51 pm »

@ cryx: ... where does it say that?

+1

If it's true, I never knew that.
I'll ask tonight
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Descan

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1784 on: October 29, 2014, 12:27:07 pm »

Spoiler:  re: Satan! (click to show/hide)

TL;DR Satan is a pretty chill dude, at the very least I'm more apt to want to hang out and chill for eternity with the Red one rather than the Bearded one, even if it'd be a tad warm. Just seems like he's a bit less... insane.

Also, I'm trying to tone it down a little here, because of the sensitivity in the thread and about the topic. So uh, if you think I'm being insulting or something, that was not the intention? I'd appreciate at least a second thought, a second read, yeah? Not a knee-jerk reaction.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 12:41:47 pm by Descan »
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