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Should other religions be added to this thread?

No
Only Judeism
Only Islam
Yes to both Judeism and Islam

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Author Topic: Christian beliefs and discussion  (Read 192787 times)

MonkeyHead

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1500 on: October 25, 2014, 08:30:11 am »

I wouldn't say deliberately designed to be unfalsifiable, more that unfalsifiable interpretations are all they can use without being ridiculed.

I think theistic faith has tended towards falsifiability simply as any arguments previously relied upon have been falsified and by necessity abandoned. Well, some at least. Some pretty insane ones still remain, kicking and screaming in the face of reason.

Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1501 on: October 25, 2014, 10:24:18 am »

that is changing to survive but I don't believe in actually evolving though
That is evolution though?

To an extent
I don't believe in an ameba turning into a fish into a lizard into a mamal into a monkey into a pre-human into a human
I do believe bird can change the shape of it's beak slowly so it can eat a different food
Or that insects can slowly gain imunity to pesticides
Just not that they can physically change into something more complex
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scriver

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1502 on: October 25, 2014, 10:34:44 am »

Many tiny streams of physical alteration a great flood of change can become~
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Helgoland

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1503 on: October 25, 2014, 10:38:17 am »

To put the finger in the wound: Do you have a definition of "more complex"?
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1504 on: October 25, 2014, 10:41:37 am »

Many tiny streams of physical alteration a great flood of change can become~
For me it stops when the thing changing has to add on more chromosomes/more DNA to become the next thing
Until we find evidence of something that adds more chromosomes than it already has to itself and alters I won't believe that kind of evolution exists


To put the finger in the wound: Do you have a definition of "more complex"?

When the creature has to add more DNA to each of it's cells
Specificaly when it needs to add a whole new chromosome
I haven't found any research showing this happening in modern animals that's why I don't believe it
And please don't throw a 180 saying I have no proof on the bible things either because there is just as much if not much more proof of those things than evolution and I have my faith
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Graknorke

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1505 on: October 25, 2014, 11:08:39 am »

When the creature has to add more DNA to each of it's cells
Specificaly when it needs to add a whole new chromosome
I was so hoping you would say that.
Sourced from here.

EDIT: Cut off the list too early, my mistake.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 11:15:18 am by Graknorke »
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Arx

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1506 on: October 25, 2014, 11:22:45 am »

That's very impressive and all, but how's it relevant to Cryxis's position?
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Frumple

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1507 on: October 25, 2014, 11:24:50 am »

Until we find evidence of something that adds more chromosomes than it already has to itself and alters I won't believe that kind of evolution exists
Yes? That's just intraspecies, but it's an explicit example of additional (or removed) chromosomes leading to physiological changes. Several (if not, perhaps, all) of the mechanisms behind chromosome addition or subtraction are known and observed.

If you're looking for some examples of observed speciation, including some that occur through change in chromosomal number, you can check here -- it's about a decade old, but that doesn't really mean much. The list starts about half way through, with explanations of what's going on in each, and the sources are at the bottom for your perusal.
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scriver

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1508 on: October 25, 2014, 11:26:20 am »

It might be more relevant to point out that people are born with too few of too many chromosomes quite often, though.
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TD1

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1509 on: October 25, 2014, 11:30:18 am »

The link named "Yes" has that near the top.

Also, I believe there may be some evidence in the ribosomal layout of...something that suggest bacterial DNA got implemented into the general mix.

I may be remembering incorrectly, so if that rings any bells for any Biologists out there, please verify.
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1510 on: October 25, 2014, 11:41:41 am »

Chromosome 2 in Human DNA might also be relevant to Cryxis misinterpretation of evolutionary biomechanics.

Arcvasti

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1511 on: October 25, 2014, 11:52:54 am »

Many tiny streams of physical alteration a great flood of change can become~
For me it stops when the thing changing has to add on more chromosomes/more DNA to become the next thing
Until we find evidence of something that adds more chromosomes than it already has to itself and alters I won't believe that kind of evolution exists


To put the finger in the wound: Do you have a definition of "more complex"?

When the creature has to add more DNA to each of it's cells
Specificaly when it needs to add a whole new chromosome
I haven't found any research showing this happening in modern animals that's why I don't believe it
And please don't throw a 180 saying I have no proof on the bible things either because there is just as much if not much more proof of those things than evolution and I have my faith

From what I remember, ameobas have MORE complex chromosomes and longer DNA codes then most other creatures[Not actually sure about this one.]. What I think you're getting at is that you don't believe in MACRO-evolution, but do believe in micro evolution? That's a pretty reasonable standpoint, especially compared to Young Earth creationism. Macroevolution doesn't have as much concrete proof behind it as Microevolution. You can demonstrate the latter with bacteria in a jar over a span of days. The former takes millions of years of accumulated tiny changes. Ameoba's turning into things is pretty far fetched. But just think of the timescales involved. If you had a bird peck out and carry away grains of sand one by one from a mountain for that amount of time, it ends up as a chasm deeper then Mariana's Trench and a sand pile larger then any mountain. Macroevolution is pretty hard to watch hapen, any more then you can watch continents or glaciers moving or measure your fingernails growing second by second. But, in the end, the result is a tremendous change.

EDIT: Why is everyone giving me interesting links? I was going to do some cleaning before I opened this thread.

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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1512 on: October 25, 2014, 12:47:01 pm »

I don't currently have the time to read those sources though I will later


And when I said adding/subtracting chromosomes I meant in a way that turns the entire species into something complexly different, i.e. ameboa into a fish or fish into an amphibian or amphibian into mammal etc etc
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Arx

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1513 on: October 25, 2014, 12:50:48 pm »

Also, I believe there may be some evidence in the ribosomal layout of...something that suggest bacterial DNA got implemented into the general mix.

I may be remembering incorrectly, so if that rings any bells for any Biologists out there, please verify.

Yep, that sounds very correct to me. I think you have more ranks in Biology than me, though.  :P
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cerapa

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1514 on: October 25, 2014, 01:08:52 pm »

And when I said adding/subtracting chromosomes I meant in a way that turns the entire species into something complexly different, i.e. ameboa into a fish or fish into an amphibian or amphibian into mammal etc etc

First google result has an explanation of how the number of chromosomes can change. http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/21/basics-how-can-chromosome-numb/

Also, I suspect you might have an odd understanding of evolution based on the use of the term "entire species".
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