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Should other religions be added to this thread?

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Only Judeism
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Author Topic: Christian beliefs and discussion  (Read 190245 times)

TD1

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1470 on: October 24, 2014, 08:57:18 pm »

This may make a few sparks, but i'm curious about what people think about this.

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If **I** were the devil I'd get everybody to commit mass infanticide thinking they were doing good. Or gone with most of the above script and then gotten my followers to start a bloody revolt against the Romans. Or just encouraged a certain German's empire to swallow the globe, eliminating the only people who followed YHWH. Interesting theory though. Philip Pullman could probably make a neat series out of that. And blood drinking rituals, if I were told out of context a religion had them, would totally have me noping out of there faster then anything else besides maybe human sacrifice.

If I were the devil? Well, I wouldn't care about any of that. According to Christianity, most people will go to Hell for something or another.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1471 on: October 24, 2014, 08:58:01 pm »

I don't want a God who kills children to get me to love him. Again, to put it in context let me change the words a bit:

I don't want a Girlfriend who kills children to get me to love her.

---
If you saw her coming, you would bar the door.

So you would rather go with the guy that wants everyone to suffer
Hates you for being gods chosen creation
Wants all humans to suffer eternal hell
And will try to twist everything you experience into anti god jumble to get you to hate him and be eternally damned?

God kills the infant knowing it won't suffer and knowing he is keeping the other(s) from suffering themselves as well
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Frumple

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1472 on: October 24, 2014, 08:59:37 pm »

As for killing being immoral being outside of the bibles text... I'm pretty sure Jesus said at least something about killing[Or even violence], even in self defense being wrong.

Quote
You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' 39"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
This came up previously. It's also worth noting that the bits in question make no mention of how to react in the face of potentially fatal threats, while other parts of the bible (mostly in the OT, but eh) are definitely alright with killing in self-defense, among other reasons.

Quote from: King James Translation
21You have heard that it was said by them of old time, You shall not kill[or murder]; and whosoever shall kill[or murder] shall be in danger of the judgment:

22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
It's worth noting, very strongly, that "kill" and "murder" are two different things, especially in regards to the original language the work was transcribed in. The KJV is also the one that mistranslated the "thou shall not murder" commandment. Again, the bible itself is actually either mum or accepting on quite a few sorts of killing. Manslaughter is mostly okay, killing in war is pretty much unmentioned (and, of course, YWHW sends its people out to murder in horrifically atrocious ways quite often)... basically anything that's not explicitly murder is not particularly condemned.
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Arcvasti

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1473 on: October 24, 2014, 09:04:04 pm »

I don't want a God who kills children to get me to love him. Again, to put it in context let me change the words a bit:

I don't want a Girlfriend who kills children to get me to love her.

---
If you saw her coming, you would bar the door.

So you would rather go with the guy that wants everyone to suffer
Hates you for being gods chosen creation
Wants all humans to suffer eternal hell
And will try to twist everything you experience into anti god jumble to get you to hate him and be eternally damned?

God kills the infant knowing it won't suffer and knowing he is keeping the other(s) from suffering themselves as well

What. Cryxis. Please stop now. This is about enough. You are the OP. Its your job to monitor the thread for potential flame war stuff and direct it along rails. Not join in on the petty arguments you should be trying to prevent. If you won't enforce civility, Toady will.

EDIT:

As for killing being immoral being outside of the bibles text... I'm pretty sure Jesus said at least something about killing[Or even violence], even in self defense being wrong.

Quote
You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' 39"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
This came up previously.

Yes. Yes it did.
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TD1

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1474 on: October 24, 2014, 09:06:36 pm »

----

So you would rather go with the guy that wants everyone to suffer
Hates you for being gods chosen creation
Wants all humans to suffer eternal hell
And will try to twist everything you experience into anti god jumble to get you to hate him and be eternally damned?

God kills the infant knowing it won't suffer and knowing he is keeping the other(s) from suffering themselves as well
Him? He's your girlfriend's son :P

Or, to recontextualise, he's God's creation. Just another tool used to break us to save us. "Spare the cane, spoil child" Catholic school philosophy.

And to be honest, if it came to worshipping God or the devil? I'd go for neither, and welcome Hell when it comes. At least everyone I know will be there-be a lot more like earth and life than heaven would be.

What you are describing, btw, puts me in mind of Mayan sacrifice.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1475 on: October 24, 2014, 09:07:37 pm »

Was giving my side

I do beleive that with his belief he will suffer damnation


Of course I meant no insult or harm
My most sincere of appogies for it coming across that bad
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1476 on: October 24, 2014, 09:10:38 pm »

I think we have beaten this topic to a pulp

Or at least pounded and beaten the crap out of me with questions

And I'm already physically exerted today now mentally as well




Onto a new subject

Opening this thread to allow Jewish and Islamic religious discussion
I say this because they are both very similar to Christianity, sharing the same god and all
(Same name/belief in and not giving the same reputation to)
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Cheeetar

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1477 on: October 24, 2014, 09:11:28 pm »

I was still interested in seeing how far down the rabbit hole your beliefs go, Cryxis.
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TD1

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1478 on: October 24, 2014, 09:12:10 pm »

Cryxis, I honestly didn't mind. If you believe it, then by all means mention it. If I was feeling suitably offended, I would leave the conversation for a bit.

And Arc, he was doing no harm. I'd rather he's find confrontation to his views somewhere, and if he doesn't want confrontation, he can always ask and I, at least, will stop.


And urg.

I'd just make a new thread for that. I like this thread as it is. Potentially flamenova stuff in Islam, in paticular.
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Gnorm

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1479 on: October 24, 2014, 09:13:58 pm »

Disclaimer: I am well aware that this is several pages behind, but my post was responded to, so therefore I feel that I must respond to the response. Also, for the purpose of this post, I use the terms "Chosen People," "Children of God," and "Israelite" fairly interchangeably.

The idea that the Covenant with the Jews is over is all but explicitly expressed in the Epistle to the Hebrews.

Quote from: Epistle to the Hebrews
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
... yeah, literally in the same set of verses:
Quote
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
    after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
    and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
    or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more.”

I guess by "all but explicitly" you mean "explicitly not"...
The title of Israel applies to the Christian establishment, not to the Jews. Just about every term used to describe the Jews in the Old Testament becomes used to describe the Christian converts in the New Testament. Also, Jews disobedient to God are considered forsaken by Him; they are not the Chosen People or the Children of God [Deuteronomy 31:16-17; St. John 8:42]. However, those that believe in Christ are the Sons of God [St. John 1:12], therefore the Chosen People.

That sounds pretty specifically like they're still the chosen people of YWHW. Further, it's not because of a group of them's giving up of Streaker J to the romans that the old covenant has waned -- it's just because there's a better priest in town.
The Chosen People are those that accept Jesus Christ [Colossians 3:11-12]; those that do not are excluded from God's people [Acts 3:22-23]. The Jews' rejection of Jesus unto death forfeits their claim to be Chosen People.

Hebrew 6 also kiiiinda' mentions YWHW's inability to lie, which I'd say would preclude its breaking of old oaths. The covenant may have changed, but promises previously made would likely still hold.
The Old Covenant, just like the new, is not a one-way deal: God offers promises to His Children in exchange for their faith and devotion, of which the Jews had neither for Christ. When the Old became the New, all believers inherited the title of the Children of God.

Also as noted, the whole "subset of wicked Jews doing wicked things and then better ones coming along" is apparently a very standard judaic literary technique, at least during the periods the torah (and related texts) was being passed along and eventually transcribed. Sort of an applied No True Scotsman thing. It... probably doesn't actually mean that much, from the text's perspective.
I'm not willing to write off all that has to do with those who do not keep their part of the Covenant being excluded as merely "a Judaic literary technique." It all cases, the Jews violated their part of the bargain by rejecting Jesus.

No lost claim sighted?
Sorry pal.

P.S.
Why do you refer to God the Father solely as YHWH, and God the Son as "Streaker J?"
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1480 on: October 24, 2014, 09:15:09 pm »

I was still interested in seeing how far down the rabbit hole your beliefs go, Cryxis.

*sigh

Well I'm mentally exerted for today
I'm done answering question till tomorrow or Sunday

You really do like questioning the crap out of me, don't you?



Cryxis, I honestly didn't mind. If you believe it, then by all means mention it. If I was feeling suitably offended, I would leave the conversation for a bit.

And Arc, he was doing no harm. I'd rather he's find confrontation to his views somewhere, and if he doesn't want confrontation, he can always ask and I, at least, will stop.


And urg.

I'd just make a new thread for that. I like this thread as it is. Potentially flamenova stuff in Islam, in paticular.

Then at least Jewish discussion added
Especialy since it is just basically the old testiment anyways
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Cheeetar

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1481 on: October 24, 2014, 09:18:28 pm »

You really do like questioning the crap out of me, don't you?

I've never met a person with beliefs like yours who sticks to them with such tenacity and determination. It's admirable, in a way.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1482 on: October 24, 2014, 09:20:52 pm »

You really do like questioning the crap out of me, don't you?

I've never met a person with beliefs like yours who sticks to them with such tenacity and determination. It's admirable, in a way.
Thanks?
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Arcvasti

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1483 on: October 24, 2014, 09:22:39 pm »

Responding to Gnorm's last two questions:

1: Presumably because YHWH is as close to His original name as we can get.

2: Because of this.

And Arc, he was doing no harm. I'd rather he's find confrontation to his views somewhere, and if he doesn't want confrontation, he can always ask and I, at least, will stop.

You're probably right there. Confrontation is good. I much prefer the current religious climate to when the Church had more power. Not that I remember that period all that much. That was a while ago and I kind of lost track of exact years. However, I took offense to his arguments/justifications. And its hard to discern tones of voice from text. It seemed like it was an internet yelling match or something. Still, seems to have cooled down.

* Arcvasti retracts his points and stuffs them into his now-overflowing marsupial pouch

EDIT: ALSO EVERYONE POSTS SO FAST. AND SINCE I REVISE AND REWORK MY POSTS SO MUCH, WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY IS ALWAYS ~5-10 POSTS REMOVED FROM WHAT I WANTED TO RESPOND TO.

Arcvasti has died from ninja-induced hyperventilation
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TD1

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #1484 on: October 24, 2014, 09:25:15 pm »

Out of idle curiosity, Cryxis, what do you think of everyone bar your own denomination, and possibly some within it (For your own personal views) thinking you are going to hell, just as much as you think the non-believer is going to hell?

Even in the Abrahamic Tradition, you can see most people think you're going to hell. Widen it to world religion? There are gonna be many who think you'll need a few more cycles before Nirvana  is achieved, not to mention how many other realms you'll have to go through.

Edit: I can't type...*fixes typos*
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