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[Cheeetar]

Did you have anything you particularly wanted to discuss about Christianity, Cryxis?

[Baffler]

*Readies petrol bombs*

So in the (somewhat old) news, a growing number of bishops and prominent figures in the Church of England are calling for big changes, alarmed at rapidly shrinking church attendance and a rising tide of general disinterest. The most recent Anglican General Synod has, in fact, made a number of changes to that effect.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11175431/Church-must-change-or-wither-away-warns-bishop.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10458380/Christianity-at-risk-of-dying-out-in-a-generation-warns-Lord-Carey.html


In a similar vein, the Catholic Church had its own Synod lately, and conspiracy theories abound about an apparently fake midterm document that was released and picked up by mainstream media. The actual decisions are here, Summary (or a translation) inbound.

Edit: Wrong document linked for the Synod. Fixed.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Did you have anything you particularly wanted to discuss about Christianity, Cryxis?

It's not exactly about Christianity, but more how other Christians 'feel/react' to certain things

[Orange Wizard]

I used to go to a Presbyterian church that had much the same reaction. They very much wanted to encourage more people to attend church, regardless of whether or not they actually believed.
I was a bit young at the time to really understand the implications, but looking back I would say that it's very silly to turn a sermon into a sodding theme park to attract more customers.

In other words, I disapprove of trying to make church more attractive or whatever.

...

<Jesus riding two animals at the same time nonsense>

So, I just read that passage in the Gospels. Matthew mentions the donkey and the others do not. The way it's phrased sounds more like "Jesus sat on the cloaks". Also, straddling animals would be silly, why would you even assume that?

...

Did you have anything you particularly wanted to discuss about Christianity, Cryxis?

It's not exactly about Christianity, but more how other Christians 'feel/react' to certain things

Usually "badly" in my experience.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

So I've got a question

Would there be a whole "Isaac Assimove's" rule for the 10 commandments
For the whole listen to your parents thing.

So like if they tell you to go and steal from the store wouldn't that be wrong if you did it even if you were listening to your parents?

[Helgoland]

Sure: Jesus at some point said pretty explicitly that all other rules are trumphed by "Love God" and "Love thy neighbor".

Judaism has similar elements as well - when an human life is in danger, you are required to break the religious laws if it is necessary to save that person.

[Frumple]

So I've got a question

Would there be a whole "Isaac Assimove's" rule for the 10 commandments

By the infinite emissions of donkeys, it's Asimov.

... regardless, the commandment says "honor", not "listen to". Different things. You definitely wouldn't be honoring your parents if you assisted them in committing sin.

E: Beyond that, the general interpretation seems to be that the obedience aspect is only active when they give lawful (and/or reasonable) commands. So the commandment isn't a blank check to the parents.

I was a bit young at the time to really understand the implications, but looking back I would say that it's very silly to turn a sermon into a sodding theme park to attract more customers.

In other words, I disapprove of trying to make church more attractive or whatever.

Silly except... not? I mean, from a theological/spiritual point of view, definitely. But from an organizational point of view... mostly not?

There's a certain (fairly large, really) extent to which the only thing the church(es) actually care about is secular power -- donations, political influence, etc. For that, they need adherents -- folks to show up in church, support the church's approved political figures, donate cash money equivalents to keep building/maintaining facilities, etc., so forth, so on.

It's fairly well known and noticed through the organizational history of the various churches for them to pander, so to speak, to acquire more vespene gas secular power (because, unlike an actual divinely supported organization, they need secular power to continue to function). Continuing to do so in the face of new challenges is... par the course, methinks.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

((Sorry, I really don't pay attention to what I type some times))


So follow the laws unless following said law breaks another law, including the ones not in the Ten Commandments?

[Helgoland]

Follow the law unless following the law would mean going against its spirit. At least that's how I understand it. Plus the laws from the OT aren't really binding for Christians...

[Orange Wizard]

I was a bit young at the time to really understand the implications, but looking back I would say that it's very silly to turn a sermon into a sodding theme park to attract more customers.

In other words, I disapprove of trying to make church more attractive or whatever.

Silly except... not? I mean, from a theological/spiritual point of view, definitely. But from an organizational point of view... mostly not?

There's a certain (fairly large, really) extent to which the only thing the church(es) actually care about is secular power -- donations, political influence, etc. For that, they need adherents -- folks to show up in church, support the church's approved political figures, donate cash money equivalents to keep building/maintaining facilities, etc., so forth, so on.

It's fairly well known and noticed through the organizational history of the various churches for them to pander, so to speak, to acquire more vespene gas secular power (because, unlike an actual divinely supported organization, they need secular power to continue to function). Continuing to do so in the face of new challenges is... par the course, methinks.

Oh yeah, there's definitely the whole "we must become teh powerfuls" line of thought. I merely see that as wrong and mildly hypocritical - and I will condemn any Christian church whose primary motivation is political power.

...

Follow the law unless following the law would mean going against its spirit. At least that's how I understand it. Plus the laws from the OT aren't really binding for Christians...

My church makes a distinction between ceremonial laws (those that are related to OT priests and temple worship), cultural laws (hack off chunks of your penis, don't cut the hair on your temples, tattoos are vetoed), and moral laws (the Ten Commandments).
The ceremonial laws are no longer relevant because Jewish religion has been surpassed by the arrival of Christ.
Cultural laws were only applicable to the ancient Hebrew people so that they would be visibly different from everyone else around them. There's also a whole bunch of confusing theological doctrine regarding baptism and how it is intended to replace circumcision, but I won't go into that here.
This leaves the moral laws that are still binding to modern-day Christians. Unfortunately, they're so broad that no-one really has a chance of keeping them all.

[Frumple]

Oh yeah, there's definitely the whole "we must become teh powerfuls" line of thought. I merely see that as wrong and mildly hypocritical - and I will condemn any Christian church whose primary motivation is political power.

...

Oh, to a certain extent it's not even that. That churches require secular power -- via adherents, and the material resources they represent -- is a simple fact. The denomination that is going to continue to exist without material support is, well. Isn't. And ad-hoc, grass root sort of stuff... doesn't really happen -- spontaneously maintaining doctrinal cohesion without administrative support, so to speak, is basically impossible. Similarly, you need people to print and distribute holy text (bibles) and whatnot, as well as support a class of individuals who are dedicated to establishing and spreading the cult's theological base -- oral tradition really isn't going to last very long, in the grand scheme of things (especially in the face of other options for cultural transmission), and most folks just really don't have the time to maintain a sustainable memetic spread.

The other option is either extinction or extreme mutation (and even with the major material resources that organized religions have had to bear, the latter has happened to a fair degree). Basically, a church is going to act largely the same regardless of their underlying goal -- the one that doesn't act like "we must become teh powerfuls" is simply going to die. Even if that's not really (well, ostensibly, anyway) the point.

Of course, you could say that if avoiding that sort of thing is going to cause them to die, then they should die, but...

[Gnorm]

*Readies petrol bombs*

So in the (somewhat old) news, a growing number of bishops and prominent figures in the Church of England are calling for big changes, alarmed at rapidly shrinking church attendance and a rising tide of general disinterest. The most recent Anglican General Synod has, in fact, made a number of changes to that effect.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11175431/Church-must-change-or-wither-away-warns-bishop.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10458380/Christianity-at-risk-of-dying-out-in-a-generation-warns-Lord-Carey.html

Honestly, I don't think creating more liberal Christian youth groups is the way to go. Those are just the things that made me leave my Episcopal Church—among other reasons, of course. Honestly, I wouldn't mind going back to the ways of fire and brimstone preaching.

[Descan]

You have to admit though, Gnorm. You aren't exactly in the majority when it comes to youth...

[Orange Wizard]

I dunno, actually. My church is anything but liberal, and we have a higher number of teenagers/young adults than many other churches in the area.

[Frumple]

You have to admit though, Gnorm. You aren't exactly in the majority when it comes to youth...

To be fair, the emotional abuse inherent in a lot of the fire and brimstone stuff (you are bad and should feel bad, do what I say or be punished, etc., etc.) is a pretty good way to fuck over confused young people in such a way they become dependent on the structure abusing them. It's probably not the worst way to increase attendance, insofar as means of increasing the numbers go.

It's just kinda' scummy as fuck and trends toward screwing people over pretty badly, but hey, whatever gets the donations rolling in.

It'd be nice if the whole church of christ became less hateful instead of more, over time, though. Bit nice. Maybe a little.