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No

Only Judeism

Only Islam

Yes to both Judeism and Islam

[Orange Wizard]

(Try for 2-3 a.m., that's when the really silly stuff starts to appear )

So, a quick rundown on my thoughts for the whole Hitler going to heaven discussion:

God requires perfection, that is, no evil to have ever been committed by a given person for that person to enter heaven.
No-one is capable of this. Ever. At all. See the whole original sin thing. Also people are people and people aren't perfect.

In other words, no-one can go to heaven.
Except the people for whom Christ died. Their sins are "imputed" to Christ.
According to God's nature, sin must be punished. Christ was punished in place of the people who were saved.
People who are saved eventually come to believe in God and start trying to live their lives for him.
People who are not saved keep doing what they were always doing.

This is laid out terribly. Not quite an LSP-style stream of consciousness, but it's still pretty bad.

I'll give my personal opinion and say if you truly believed you wouldn't wait until the last minute to repent.

Also this.

Ninja'd, but basically this. Except more emphasis on actually doing good acts as well as believing.

In the book of James, "faith without deeds is dead". I take that to mean that deeds are an expression of faith, not part of it, but YMMV.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Also I would like to know how the other Christians beliefs are on last minute salvation (getting saved and having faith on your death bed)


In my faith it is ok and you are forgiven of all your sins, only if you have true faith in Jesus Christ so it can work but if your just on your death bed saying you have salvation to calm your relatives it doesn't work.

I'll give my personal opinion and say if you truly believed you wouldn't wait until the last minute to repent.

This situation includes people who had never heard of Christianity before and people who were just to ignorant to pay attention to it until death bed

[4maskwolf]

Well, see, I'd give my opinion, but salvation and the afterlife is the one topic I stay WAY away from in religious discussions.  Mostly for personal reasons, and because I have the least amount of emotional and textual support for anything I say.

[Frumple]

This situation includes people who had never heard of Christianity before and people who were just to ignorant to pay attention to it until death bed

I would probably posit that credible -- genuine -- faith is not something that can be fostered in that sort of time frame. By simple necessity of what is involved in cultivating and adhering (a great deal of time, and many challenges) to genuine faith, sudden, short term conversion is simply impossible. Maybe last minute conversion would knock a few years off purgatory or hell (if your denomination is one that holds that souls eventually leave hell, anyway) as a sort of, "Well, you tried, I guess." sort of thing, but it being sufficient for salvation is something I would call incredibly unlikely. Also something of a insult to those who actually have spent much of their lives as faithful, to the extent that would matter.

Good lie doctrine for the church to foster, though. They get in on more wills and near-death donations like that.

[Spehss _]

Ninja'd, but basically this. Except more emphasis on actually doing good acts as well as believing.

In the book of James, "faith without deeds is dead". I take that to mean that deeds are an expression of faith, not part of it, but YMMV.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. If you really had some belief in your faith you'd at least try to follow the general teachings, try not to sin, be generous, try not to judge or condemn, y'know, deed stuff. You can't just go your whole life not paying any attention to, say, your church teachings aside from going to church once in a while, then when you're about to die you suddenly expect to be saved for saying "I believe I'll be saved."

You gotta at least try and walk the talk.

[Orange Wizard]

Apparently I'm agreeing with you, then.

[chaoticag]

I'd start one, but all I could really talk about is what I'm familiar with, which would be Sunni Islam, and a specific offshoot of that as well. For the most part, all we're being taught nowadays is the Christian equivalent of Southern Baptism. Doesn't quite help that the only school of Sunni Islam are offshoots of the Shari'i school, rather than the Mu'atazilite school, which died out some time ago, and generally sounded the most interesting to me.

[TD1]

Just saying: Why would God only reveal his word to some people? I mean, sure, the word spread from a point of origin...but that was in one point in time and space. I'm sure there are tribes who have never heard of Jesus....would a loving God bring them into a world and place where the only possible outcome was eternal damnation?

[Phmcw]

(Try for 2-3 a.m., that's when the really silly stuff starts to appear )

So, a quick rundown on my thoughts for the whole Hitler going to heaven discussion:

God requires perfection, that is, no evil to have ever been committed by a given person for that person to enter heaven.
No-one is capable of this. Ever. At all. See the whole original sin thing. Also people are people and people aren't perfect.

In other words, no-one can go to heaven.
Except the people for whom Christ died. Their sins are "imputed" to Christ.
According to God's nature, sin must be punished. Christ was punished in place of the people who were saved.
People who are saved eventually come to believe in God and start trying to live their lives for him.
People who are not saved keep doing what they were always doing.

This is laid out terribly. Not quite an LSP-style stream of consciousness, but it's still pretty bad.

I coont get over how evil is that representation of God. You admited that sin is things that God don't like, and that he created humanity with the potential to sin. Then one of his own angel (apparently the most courageous) rebelled and gave humanity knowlege (which mean that humanity had no knowlege that it could be doing something mad before).

He then randomely selected a tribe of herders and made them his choosen peoples commanding them, among other things, to commit genocide, rape, and to take slaves.

Come Jesus, his son and incarnations, how it work exaclty is unclear. He get tortured to death, taking on himself the original sin (which was one, once again without the knowlege of good and evil) and THAT allow anyone to join the choosen peoples. The jews go on in history, pretty much always persecuted/hunted or killed.

His story make no sense, have no proof, but you're punished for not believing in it. And he DOES know that it's entirely up to him if we believe him or not.

I'm sorry, but that guy is insane, and following him is morally indefensible. Especially since he have hundred of different sects each killing in his name, and for quite a lot of them, "in good faith". You cannot blame a suicide bomber for his lack of faith.
The one thing you can do, if you love your fellow human being, is to shut paradise's door in His face, get down to hell, and join Satan. That guy seems 1000 more understanding, human and compassionate than God.

[Descan]

Can't say I disagree, you pretty much raised the big bugbears I've always had with religion in general and Christianity specifically, sans the whole "No Gods-damned proof" bit you left out.

[scrdest]

As a note, Phmcw, you're going by the Word of Dante. Literal.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Humanity was put on earth with one rule
Don't eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil
then a snake came down and told them to eat it

we at it

now we have death, pain in child birth, and taking care of the earth is more difficult. Also we got kicked from a garden that might as well be heaven

all because we have terrible self control

[Descan]

That's not exactly the most reasonable response to people who literally do not know what right/wrong, good/evil are, who then go ahead and do something you said was wrong/evil. You know, the thing they don't know what is?

It's like having a 1 year old, putting a bottle of rat poison in the middle of his crib, and telling him "Don't drink that, it's bad for you!"

He's going to drink it. You know he will. Everyone knows he will. Yet somehow we don't say "Eh, he deserved it, for going against what you said." We'd toss you in jail for child endangerment.

Adam and Eve were basically in that childs position, with how naive they were created.

[TD1]

Humanity was put on earth with one rule
Don't eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil
then a snake came down and told them to eat it

we at it

now we have death, pain in child birth, and taking care of the earth is more difficult. Also we got kicked from a garden that might as well be heaven

all because we have terrible self control

Personally, if that is what happened, then I'm glad it did.

I mean, without it, we would never have been born. I prefer existence to non-existence.

Of course, there's also the point that God would know that Adam and Eve would eat of the Tree, because of his Omnipotence.

[Frumple]

... nah, omnipotence would only have granted that knowledge if the critter wanted to know. Omnipotence doesn't necessitate omniscience, just enables it. 'Course, the christian divinity is usually ascribed omniscience, too, and there's not really any getting around that.

As for the current discussion, well, there's reasons many christian denominations these days very selectively acknowledge the old testament. OT!YWHW was something of a gigantic prick. NT!YWHW's not exactly perfect, but it's better than stuff like the garden of eden, or the mass infanticide, or the sending of people to genocide and rape and etc., etc., etc. Well, to the extent it doesn't indulge in the same sort of things, anyway.