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Author Topic: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)  (Read 8008 times)

taldarus

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #60 on: September 21, 2014, 10:57:10 pm »

MDF - you actually apparently stole my lost post  :o

I thought about what you posted, and here would be my response. I guess what I am really interested in is trying to create a crude form of diplomacy. I don't know anything about druidism (interested, but haven't tried gnomes or humans yet), but what you are describing is what I was wanting to do with the caravans. If DFHack can do what you are suggesting, then that is perfect! Except I know nothing about dfhack...

The mechanic I am looking for is just this: Warriors (I love the battles, but little else. Ok, mega projects are really fun, but far to time consuming). I just realized it! I am looking for a way to make df light. kinda like nano fortress, but simplified!

A key part I lost in my crash is this: Souls. I never intended to use souls, but rather more like L'Meire's concept, a system that punishes you for wrongful death. As there is a defined [EVIL] in this game, these guys only gain currency or points for fighting that [EVIL]. This in turn unlocks their end game content. Super spells, epic armor and weapons, etc. It would all be balanced of course.

Picture : Slaying evil = end game material. You can farm, make clothes, dwarfy things. But all combat material is locked until later. No traps, no pets, just a few 'soldiers'. Therefore you bring things focused more on keeping your soldiers alive, to unlock better weapons. This will play best on an EVIL biome, and I want the faction to fear, but overcome the biome's influence aboveground. These are soldiers, not miners.

It is a crusader'y mechanic, but instead of the hollow lame IRL version, this has an actual 'evil' according to the tokens. Your first seven are scouts, with the main force following (Immigrations). You then set about to tame the danger's of evil. You are sponsored by races, and their support rises or falls with your progress. If you fail to kill anything in year 1, no support will follow. No support = no weapons and armor, food, defenses, peoples = death. Oh! good example of this would be X-Com! Please someone get the reference....

Anyway, you can build outside of [EVIL] biomes, and this is where more disreputable methods might be necessary. No Undead in the area....Maybe an accidental release can cause a panic, sending you more support. I see a lot of potential in creativity, always dealing with this need of support mechanic. (What happens to any monster killer, when the monster is dead?)

You can play them the honorable warriors, or more dwarfy in style.

Edit: Afraid of crashes now. Souls in more detail. I wondered if adding multiple TYPES of souls would potentially help across the board. It isn't that much of a stretch to say animals are 'lower' than sentience in value, and would [EVIL] even have souls? Perhaps differences in types could help balance the warlock faction (I only played where shamblers have souls O.o) Like mega beast souls, they create powerful reactions, but are rare. Just an idea.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 11:05:40 pm by taldarus »
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smakemupagus

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2014, 11:14:19 pm »

The sentient species souls already are marked, [REACTION_CLASS:GREATER_SOUL].

-----

Soul-having is pretty ubiquitous:

Searching for: [EXTRA_BUTCHER_OBJECT:BY_TYPE:THOUGHT][EBO_ITEM:PLANT:NONE:PLANT_MAT:SOUL
Found 949 occurrence(s) in 57 file(s)

[EVIL] has more to do with what biome the creature lives in than its morality, so yes, i think a lot of living creatures with the [EVIL] tag will have souls. (edit ... i guess i can't think of too many non-Evil creatures that are marked for EVIL biomes.  Depends what you think of the morality of crows and squigs. ;) )

But since souls are tied to THOUGHT centers, I *think* that undead will not have them in general. 
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 11:32:16 pm by smakemupagus »
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smakemupagus

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2014, 11:50:08 pm »

But, sorry for rambling a bit, the point i really meant to make, is that there's nothing currently that differentiates a soul from an "Evil" creature nor a creature from an [EVIL] biome from any other, with the exception of some of the sentients. (SOUL_DROW, SOUL_GOBLIN, SOUL_ORC, SOUL_WARLOCK, SOUL_AUTOMATON, SOUL_FROST_GIANT, along with the civilized races and kobolds, have unique soul objects). 

I don't know if your crusaders plan to consider Orcs "Evil" but they aren't [EVIL] ;)

So, I don't immediately see how you are going to keep track of Evil kills, assuming you want to keep track of monsters and etc., not just Slaver & Evil sentients.   You're going to have to come up with, and implement a system.

taldarus

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2014, 01:31:56 am »

See first post. I want an Uruk paladin. Honestly, the general response make me feel better about opening up the race choices. Do orcs like 'evil' biomes? No, then they COULD be friends....

Is there a way to simulate relationships with the different factions? So you could alter merchants and caravans that come and go? This is why I was thinking something akin to the human design, but no merchant workstalls. (To reliable, but may be necessary)

I was thinking something like this

Diplomat Office (Civilized, Slaver, Etc.)
Call for further aid (maybe controllable for race specific)
Send out Patrols (Increased chance of caravan arrival)
Membership (Guaranteed caravan and immigrants of certain number per year.

All of this would depend on a writ (certificate) of deeds done. So basically a lawyer verifies the monster was dealt with, and is dead. This allows you a bigger budget to draw on from your supporters. Still a soul I suppose, but oh well...

Actually, it would be fun, if for the defense mission, instead of being hidden. It draws the target to you. Mainly thinking of mega beasts, governments would be very thankful for the death of such a beast I think.

While this faction is monk/knight'ish I think they are more mercenary than that. Obviously a DF twist would be helpful. X-COM really does summarize the gameplay I am wanting. However, I do want something to balance the powerful weapons better. Sieges are one a start, but that just brings fun. I would like a code of honor or diety to guide their government. Whether they follow it or take less honorable path's is up to the player.

I am wobbling between an alliance and just creating a single race version, thoughts? I really like the alliance idea, but posses problems. Almost my weekend so
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 01:46:00 am by taldarus »
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LMeire

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2014, 06:37:25 am »

Maybe make them based on a single race for the general population but add a unit-spawning reaction to "recruit" exceptionally heroic members from other friendly races (extremely rare castes) using writs as currency- similar to the Deon's Tavern in Human mode.
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smakemupagus

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2014, 11:44:24 am »

FWIW one of the orcish temples already sponsors an order of lay dead-hunters (the order of the Morning Star, at Sun and Stars orrery, with blessed maces and blunt-tipped javelins).  On the other hand the temple also dabbles in blood magic which may not sit quite  right with more urbane Human paladins.  On the other other hand refilling an undead with blood/pain/fear/thoughts makes it nice and killable again so it depends what your ultimate priorities are ;)


* also, immortals tend to become liches eventually right?  So really, taking out those elves preemptively was a service to the order too...

Aside:  I don't know why you are worried that references to Wheel of Time, Age of Wonders, Xcom, etc. would be going past anyone on Bay forums. You're going to have to get a lot more esoteric than that to lose anyone here...
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 12:18:52 pm by smakemupagus »
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taldarus

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2014, 06:33:41 am »

I like the idea of using a building to create a forced multi-race faction, but it creates balance issues. I wouldn't want it to be too difficult, but if you aren't careful it could end up like the skeletons, or even worse the shambling zombie guys. Way to easy to spam a HUGE population. I like the idea of unreliability. It adds more drama or even possibly !fun!. Planning on resuming the project tomorrow, and I should have about two weeks of relative free time to pump into it!
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taldarus

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2014, 05:52:41 pm »

Multi-race is now working! So that fixes that problem....Still took thirty minutes to clear up the boulder crabs. Someone really should look at that if they haven't ever heard of it. My civilization was ALL boulder crab...Cause appears to have been

creature_paladin
[CREATURE:PALADIN]

entity_paladin
[CREATURE:PALADIN]

as changing those words to Blight removed the problem. Anyway, the crabs are actually  quite interesting as they appear non-intelligent, butcherable, civilization members. Tinkered around with them a tad. It's like the entity token was made of thin air... As several entity settings I changed did NOTHING. Tried giving animals, just to see if I could add animals to the crabs and nothing happened. What fun! I have the bug stored away on a save file.

EDIT: Current question would be this: What races would people see as joining an 'anti-evil biome' faction. Also note the working title will be "Blight Breakers" Do to the crab bug  :P
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 05:55:41 pm by taldarus »
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heydude6

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2014, 06:49:44 pm »

Well i guess some of the more fanatical members of the orcish order of the Morning Star can join. Just say that they were kicked out due to their fanaticism
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smakemupagus

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2014, 07:03:26 pm »

Sounds like a classic duplicated raws bug, I.e. you duplicated a creature name that already existed.  Did you check your error log?  Or just grep Paladin and check if there's already an entry

LMeire

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2014, 07:14:22 pm »

Dwarves and elves would be fairly solid choices, I think. Dwarves because they seem pretty concerned with things like duty and honor and they already have a "witch-hunter" caste that- in my experience- can ruin a necromancer's day with minimal back-up; and elves because they probably view the existence of demons and the undead as a ghastly affront to nature.
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slay_mithos

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2014, 08:21:15 pm »

Humans would do anything, if the price is right too, orcs just enjoy fighting...

If you are just looking for reasons to join a crusade, most races can fit, even if not all join for the initlal reason of the crusade.
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taldarus

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2014, 09:37:53 pm »

This talk of error logs intrigues me...

*goes back to drawing board* Writing up a big, formalized design atm.
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taldarus

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2014, 10:47:19 pm »

Blight Breakers [Paladins v 0.1]

I have gone through and re-read all the posts, and I think I have an idea where this would best go.  I think what people really want is the addition of consequences, taint, and purity to the games mechanics. So perhaps a race that is entirely built upon the druidism mechanic. (WAY beyond me) I had tried to capture this, using trade with factions, writ and diplomacy to measure worth, but I think most people are less than excited by that. That's really the only major change so far, just some polish here and there. Oh, loved the honored dead idea!

I still envision a knightly order (No need to implement, just how I will always see them), perhaps having a 'pet' that does all labors (no SKILLED CRAFTSMAN at all). There is no need for 'progression' in the sense of castes. Just implementing multiple races will be cluttered enough. So no job specific castes. Just let the original engine do it's thing. You want a priest, teach him. You want a warrior, train him, bless him, etc. 

Priests -> holy relics (The factions main resource. I envision this being like a craftsman, no real cost, just slow to make)
Holy relics -> Rituals -> Blessings for both men and weapons...
Blessing of Courage (Fearless)
Blessing of the Stalwart (No Pain)
Blessed weapon (+X% combat stats)

Taint is a a fairly major piece of polish, but I really think it gives my idea the ol'DF polish.
Taint is perhaps the evil version of blessings, it would be 'easier' to create many powerful soldiers, and I think its focus would be maiming and slowly killing. But obviously locks out the 'good' guy element. If your corruption goes to -1, you also become [EVIL] and automatically get attacked by factions and loose all support. However, it will give access to everything you will eventually need. Perhaps you will be forced to spend several years without immigrants and new population, if you survive you get access to new toys.
Tainted warrior (A bloodlust mechanic, more blood on character = better combat stats) [Very early concept]
Tainted weapon (Poison type mechanics, way more potential power. As poison quickly alters balance of power)

Morality changing factors
(-) Killing
(-) Looting (Is it possible? Maybe a negative point for touching any refuse? [Keep in mind these are not hunter/gatherers])
(-) Dark Rituals
(-) Tormenting Souls (Create evil worker pet)
(-) Dark Mother (Creating new devotee's [Birthing])
(-) Twist animals (Create undead/monster versions of wildlife)
(-) Desecrate Dead (Totem type pet, syndromes, fear, multiple options, perhaps random)
(-) Release zombie uprising
(+/-) Growing plants/deforestation?
(+) Healing the land (ties in with right above. Want to tie it into the cavern mechanic. IE create new 'caverns biomes' that you can spawn to slowly terraform a region. Start with Blighted land end with feather trees, golden sap, and teletubbies. Or the other way around...Zombie teletubbies anyone?)
(+) Healing wounded (No idea how to heal enemy)
(+) Holy Rituals
(+) Purifying Animals (take a zombie animal corpse, run reaction -> living, healthy animal)
(+) Animal Servants (Monkey builders, etc? [joke?])
(+) Curing madness (Artifact moods, no more artifacts...If you don't cure it, he will go mad...)
(+) Honoring the dead (I loved this idea. Take an enemy invader corpse, run reaction -> an instantly dead citizen, that you must now bury)
(=) Crusades/defense (raids) mechanics. I was never in love with this, just felt it was a necessary component to explain why the other factions where giving you stuff. A little sad at losing the trade/diplomacy things  :'(, but that is the march of progress. It was not that good a system.

An example of an end game holy spell:

Blessing of Serenity (no cost, assuming you are actually pure enough to use it) - All hostiles go to sleep, and then die, peacefully. (Paralysis) This causes a lot of corruption, and the player must scramble to honor the dead, to balance the corruption.Or.... They don't have to die, maybe they just never wake from the dream, and become a 'member'. You must provide for them, draining limited resources.

I like the idea of hidden corruption inside your fort as well. So perhaps immigrants carry outside influences, some of them are good and some evil. You must find and purify all those who alter your sphere. (NOT KILL! unless your evil... just realized, purify does not equal kill in all of my posts. It also doesn't mean torture. I think of a hospital as a place of purity. The sterile white shows clean, without taint...)

I think that this could very easily capture the warhammer feel many people want, while still allowing a huge range of styles of play. No traditional DF gameplay. Just a survival mode....


Qutestion: Could the blessings consume purity points? I wouldn't want it to count as 'corruption' however. So perhaps a second system to track the [ABSOLUTE] Value of your accumulated deeds. An simpler alternative would be to use the number as a modifier. EG... Blessed Armor gives +X% to defensive value...Keep in mind if x = 1000... That wooden shield is very powerful. To balance, make it easy to corrupt, hard to stay pure.

What I want/need
  • More Ideas! (Thanks for all the awesome suggestions!)
  • Morality script (Negative = Corrupted & Positive = Pure) I cannot do this (yet), unless there is a way free of DFHack someone can recommend.
  • White Cloaked figures [Graphic] (I can probably do this, but...Far from artist, am I)
  • A means of protecting men from the elements: Hot, Cold, evil rains, zombie bites, etc. I don't want ANOTHER tunnel underground to survive...I mean, I DON'T do that with my orcs, humans, etc....kobolds.... I envision a workshop that can heal/protect against these things.
  • A source of equipment, I dislike the idea of just making it. If I want to run a city of craftsman and engineers, I play dwarves, orcs, warlocks, gnomes, or succubi. Where's my trading now! *goes off and cries*

*mutters* maybe just try humans....boring bland humans... :P
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taldarus

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #74 on: September 23, 2014, 11:03:43 pm »

To continue:

Forgot races:

I say yay!
-Dwarves
-Elves
-Humans
-Gnomes
-Orcs (OLOG PALADIN!  :P)

I say may? (Don't have a good image of the 'culture' in my head)
-Drow
-Goblins
-Kobolds
-Naga
-Frost Giants (jk)
-Angel guys....( I wanted angels as an epic spell, not a race member... :o )

I say nay!
-Succubi (They like evil biomes...)
-HFS
-Forgotten Things
-Centaurs
-Werewolves
-Warlocks
-Banshees
-Automatons
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