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Author Topic: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)  (Read 8014 times)

Tirion

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2014, 04:52:43 am »

Instead of an alliance of races, why not make them angelic? There are now angels in 40.xx, these Paladins could be some weaker, more earthly form of them, like what succubi are compared to HFS demons. Worker caste would be almost human, but still stronger so they are valid threats as part of invader armies. Soldier castes would become bigger, faster, stronger, with more interactions and immunities the further you go up the power ladder. Since Divine Metals are procedurally generated, I'm not sure they could be used in a civ... but it's worth some investigation, if the metal they bring is between steel and adamantine in quality, they will be best friends or more honored enemies.

Also bear in mind that last I checked, dwarves, elves, gnomes and humans aren't [GOOD]. They are neutral at best. Centaurs were the only [GOOD] civilized race in 5.10, not sure how much it changed. Dwarf, gnome and human players should start as friendlies (barring worldgen wars over conflicting ethics, but those should be rare, you don't want 4 squads of divine metal wearing supersoldiers coming for you in year 2) but they should have the option of killing the Paladin diplomat to provoke Paladinite Christmas divine retribution.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2014, 06:36:58 am »

If you want an alliance of races, maybe make a conversion process similar to the Succubi?

But to be honest, I'd rather have paladins as an extension of the human game than as a new race in its own right.  A good race featuring another species, though, could be interesting.

How about this idea:

Grigori, a race of angelic beings who descended into the world in order to guide it.  They have access to strange and advanced technology and are very powerful physically, but they are vulnerable to corruption because they are unfamiliar with the temptations of the material body.  Corrupted Grigori either devolve into or produce Nephilim (possibly by altering local wildlife or civilized beings), powerful monsters that can be tamed but are not under your direct control and can potentially rebel or spread their corruption if not destroyed.

taldarus

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2014, 08:10:40 am »

I don't really care about the alliance aspect. (Although i will still do it on my own - the challenge and all :))

A holy race aspect is more what I was driving. I would point out A LOT of positive response could stem just out of w40k. So perhaps a page out of that book?

Tirion - I didn't know that there was a angel or divine metals in 40.xx I honestly am sticking with MW - DF and wont touch updates with out it. Found MW 2 years ago, and haven't played without since, and no regrets. I personally like your idea, relatively the same if you take out the alliance aspect.

IndigoFenix - I am less interested in your idea, but that is because I want an anti-corruption race. I mean a 'purity' in the world that is abrasive, being so stinking good they don't really get along well with anyone. (But you need them to keep the evil at bay. You do want the evil contained *eyes narrow suspiciously* Don't you?) I do know that the w40k dynamic of Space Marines v Chaos SM is also appealing as well. I have to admit I had toyed with idea in my head today. A race that can swing one way or the other would be really freaking awesome to play. So I must tip the hat to you there. (But that is kinda the norm in a way for df. Let's be honest who hasn't turned their boisterous dwarves into crazed cultists with blood alters and dark rituals of death....Screw it do it again! Blood to the Blood God! Skulls for the Sku...Ahem *Goes and builds a thousand diamond studded, golden temples of Slaanesh, and then lies down*)

Another man said something along these lines, "The difference between technology and magic is understanding (versus mystery). If you wan't to call it 'technology' be my guest. I will call it divine intervention myself ;)

I would just want to point out that 0% tolerance, super goody goody guys are almost evil. (Plus the never been done before aspect) I like the idea of that. So good it feels coldly evil (Oh! A blue flame motif... Cold Fire...Chilly yet it burns...)
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smakemupagus

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2014, 10:34:20 am »

cool, semi helpful. I noticed it mentioned weapon racks etc. is there any more specific details, or will I just have to muddle through? not trying to be difficult, just killing time omw to work, and hard to use a phone for this stuff.

in detail, I notice there are furniture requirements, but isn't there also quality as well, I just see quantity.. I know there are quality requirements though. I can't remember if they include clothes and furniture

The wiki is usually comprehensive, except for a few moments after a new version release.  There are people who use some kind of black magic to extract all off the tokens that the raw parser can understand and then the whole population of modders more or less exhaustively test and put any new info they discover in the wiki.  With >99% confidence if anything (like item quality requirement for nobles) doesn't appear in the wiki, it doesn't exist as something you can do in raw-files-only modding. 

slay_mithos

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2014, 11:13:24 am »

And that's when you go to hunt for dfhack scripts, right?
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smakemupagus

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2014, 11:49:05 am »

Well, yes and no.  DFHack has a lot of tools that extend what you can do, and it is amazing, but (not being a professional programmer, and not intending to delve too deeply into writing or debugging scripts) i try to use it very selectively.  IMO is better to sort of browse and learn what is already possible in raw modding alone and come up with creative solutions, and when needed browse what is already stable developed and sort of mature in DFHack and use that.  If you're a relative newbie and the core idea of your mod requires DFHack scripts that don't exist yet, you've got a big project ahead of you :)

Sagus

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2014, 12:49:13 pm »

I would just want to point out that 0% tolerance, super goody goody guys are almost evil. (Plus the never been done before aspect) I like the idea of that. So good it feels coldly evil (Oh! A blue flame motif... Cold Fire...Chilly yet it burns...)
It's yet another evil race, then :P

Because seriously. When the title mentioned a "good" race, I thought it'd be a civilisation that focused on, I dunno, healing, using magic to make invaders become non-agressive and leave, eat only vegetables so they don't harm animals, etc, which actually could be an interesting change of pace. Other than killing "evil" races, there's nothing "good" about this civilisation, specially from the way you describe them. I mean I could just mod the game to make Warlocks and Succubus and Orcs not be allies if I want Evil vs Evil, and if I just want to slaughter a bunch of enemies I just mess around on Arena.

I feel that so far this really doesn't have anything interesting going for it, but since it's early in development maybe some different features to make the civ more unique will appear later.
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Meph

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2014, 01:32:25 pm »

It seems heavily warhammer inspired, which does not have any good races. Everyone is a bloody fanatic bend on killing everyone else.
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Sagus

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2014, 02:06:12 pm »

It seems heavily warhammer inspired, which does not have any good races. Everyone is a bloody fanatic bend on killing everyone else.
I dunno man the Tyranids are pretty cool. They are just hungry. It's not their fault everything is made of tasty.

Anyway, yeah, the title of the thread is pretty misleading, 'tis what I'm saying. This is not a "good" civ at all.
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taldarus

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2014, 05:57:25 pm »

Sagus, I like what you suggest. I am not convinced my idea is perfect. I do want it to feel good. That is why I feedback is helpful. See it seems you want magic buffed elf, tree huggers :P

The title was supposed to be a bit missleading. What I envision does come off as heavily w40k sounding, but it really wasn't my idea. I just wanted to expand on the paladin mechanic, and I tried to envision what that would look like.

It also heavily depends on your perspective of the world. What is good? We could spend decades debating it. To be clear I find your concept and description to be a bit 'abrasive'. Those elitist, people loving hippies think they are better cause they don't need weapons... So I believe that fits the requirement :)

Other people want crusades and battles with demons. Where is the balance point? Can we get both to work in the same faction? Ie the bloodthirsty (my interpretation) battle loving ones are actually the corrupted or tainted ones. Having giving into the influence of hidden darkness within their number? Where as the 'pure' refrain from touching even a sword, and refuse to harm anyone. That sounds really cool, but I fear a lot of cage traps in that future...

I myself am Chaotic Neutral on the D&D scale. I seldom find there to be anything universally good. IE it always improves everyones way of life. This influences my persepective. So how would you explain a seige between my 'paladins' and a 'succubus' invasion? If they cause the succubus to no longer desire hurting creatures, are they still succubi? It doesn't seem like it to me. So would they join your fort like IndigoFenix suggested? So how is that different?

Thanks for the awesome feedback!
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Meph

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2014, 06:03:39 pm »

This is DF, neither Warhammer nor D&D. Good are unicorns and elves and feather trees and golden salve. ;)
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Sagus

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2014, 07:00:56 pm »

I wasn't actually thinking "tree hugging elitists elves", I was thinking more "non-agressive humble creatures that prefer to keep to themselves and avoid conflict". Self-defense bloodshed would be pretty difficult to avoid in the game, but to incentivize players to use non-lethal methods, maybe they would be very physically weak and have piss poor armor and no weapons. Maybe, if possible, they'd get very bad thoughts from seeing any kind of carnage at all. I don't know if temper tantrums are hard-coded, but if possible, if they stay too long in the "miserable" state they could get that "depressed" state that a civ member gets when they fail to make an artifact (yet another incentive to avoid bloodshed; too much of it would make people in your fort just wither and die).

To survive invasions, one could perhaps use pylons that release a gas with a syndrome that makes any hostile invader become peaceful or just leave (don't know how feasible this is to program; maybe make them "vanish", saying that the pylons transported them to their homes?). These pylons could be more mid to late game, requiring energy and rarer materials.

To avoid early sieges, other than traditional walls perhaps the creatures would be able to build early temples where a prayer would send the attacking force away, the rate of success depending on how skilled the creature praying is at spellcraft. Maybe the creatures themselves would be able to inflict syndromes that make the affected enemies fall sleep, so as to buy time for the spellcaster to invoke the "send invaders away" spell sucessfully.

I would make them have NOEAT, so they wouldn't need to hunt and harm animals. The only sustenance they'd need would be drinks (maybe make them alcohol dependant so they have to farm for something else other than cloth). I'd make them at peace with wildlife too, to avoid problems with agressive animals.

What else.... maybe they can't dig very well (like kobolds), but they have workshops that allow them to synthesize gems and a special block material (as strong as, say, granite) for crafting and building walls. Farming could actually be used for this; certain plants can be synthesized into certain gems, which in turn fuel their magic. A nice 3-stage industry.

Maybe there could be a very late game workshop that can turn invasions on and off, like a giant cloakng spell or something (basically an actual "win" condition for them, which would take a looot of effort to achieve).

Pets would be all about milking and shearing. No hunt or war trainable, of course.

As for WHAT, exactly, this race could be, physically wise, I was thinking on just making a monster up. Some small, physically frail beings. I'm a big fan of non-traditional designs for sentient races (see my own creature raw in my signature, for instance), so I'd like to make them weird looking. As I wrote this I kinda envisioned them as having white, thin, tailed and hunched humanoid bodies with digitigrade feet, long arms and hands, and large diplocaulus heads. Maybe the size of kobolds or slightly larger/smaller.

...you know, I'm actually kinda fond of this idea. I might try my hand at doing something like them one of these days, if you'd rather go another route with your own race.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 08:29:38 pm by Sagus »
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slay_mithos

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2014, 07:14:07 pm »

To be fair, no faction in either of the warhammer worlds can be considered "good" anyway, as they all basically aim do dominate and destroy everything that is not themselves.

I know that one could argue that "good" is for the winner to decide, or whatever like that, but I personally feel that the "good" only applies to those that help others.

I think this race isn't really fitting all that well in MDF, because there is no white vs black morality, warring against each other here, and more of a fight for survival, for all the races, even the demonic ones.
But, well, apart from us players, it's really up to Meph to decide whether or not to include what we can present him with, and if the race ends up being playable and fun, who knows, right?

Also, as Sagus says, it might be way more challenging to have a race that's against the very principle of fighting, even for survival, that would resort to various tricks and magicks to demotivate the assailants and beasts, being masters of illusions and healing.
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taldarus

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2014, 10:07:27 pm »

geh phone call deleted whole message. summarized form.

I am sharing ideas here. I would love to participate, but I am trying to help masterwork and df two things I love. I doubt I will be able to actively participate in the design, because of time zone and work. I will try and create the first multi race faction, and maybe survival mode. is a personal thing. told it can't be done, now I have to do it ;)

I am good at design and problem solving. my point was masterwork has a decided lack of 'good guys'. in many ways df is not intended to play nice, making a fun challenge and potentially unique gameplay.

I would rather see my ideas given form then be imaginary.... well.... less imaginary
...

I see another four potential races:
1-sudo paladin angel race
2-Teletubbies (LOL, can't resist the horror! of the elite unit is Barney! he dances and the enemies drop weapons and play with him)
3 -leprechauns (your suggestion)
4 - 40k version of good.

gotta go.

edit: can't stop laughing about Teletubbies and Barney. screw everything else. I shall conquer the world, purple dinosaur style!

Edit2: They can be violent http://phineasandferb.wikia.com/wiki/Meap .They shall strike down the world with gumdrop swords and pepermint battle staves....Someone stop me, please...

Edit3: Sagus - Your guys could still be strong, they just break down emotionally when they kill. Their is a story about something like that. They are docile and gentle, but powerful. When they kill, however, something inside of them may break.  Perhaps a modifier that MAY cause them to become a 'hidden' time bomb inside of your colony. So you have soldiers, but always keep them isolated, ready to explode. Maybe the explosion doesn't hurt any other members of society, so you have a 'hospital' where the veteran soldiers live out their damaged lives.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 10:34:42 pm by taldarus »
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smakemupagus

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Re: New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2014, 11:23:15 pm »

my point was masterwork has a decided lack of 'good guys'.

By my count MW has already about 5 playable civs more 'good' than these paladins :D  (not that there's anything wrong with that)

I am good at design
...
2-Teletubbies

 8)
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