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[than402]

actually -1 but yah, that works

what do you mean -1?

[heydude6]

I just saw -1 in the warlock Raws and I just assumed that's what we needed to use

[than402]

-1 what?

[than402]

anyway, we also need:

a) a language file. what's the best way to make one?
b) graphics for the new creatures. shall i do it, heydude?

[heydude6]

I'm worried about conflicting art styles. What creatures do you want me to do. I'm currently thinking about making abherrants albino regular wasps with a different posture and praetorians these fat jugernauts. I will draw a praetorian and show you later.

[than402]

yeah, maybe you're right. albino wasps and fat juggernauts sound fine. as for which creatures, well every one of them needs a sprite and the only ones we're not using at the moment are the mad aberrants and praetorians you'll find at the bottom of the creature file. in the meantime, i will start a fort and see what problems i can spot. if anyone else is interested in testing it, i have uploaded yet another file with some minor changes (mostly the shields, the buildings and making the nobles less infuriating)

[Splint]

I'd just like to point out that no skill gain won't prevent them from using them, just make them very clumsy at doing so.

Spoiler: spilered for possibly coming off like a massive jerkass (click to show/hide)

Here's an idea

• By default the hive does not have access to shields. This prevents invaders and caravan guards (if applicable,) from bringing them and keeps you from having them at embark or making them yourself.
• Cut learn rate not to zero, but just to an extremely low amount (say, 1/5 of the normal.) This is a matter of balance for when you want to fight intruders rather than use traps for everything like some kind of insectoid gnome. Chitin tends to not hold up well against.... Anything. Except blunt weapons which in my experience seem to habitually glance off unless the user is stronger than normal. This then offers wasps some semblance of intelligence, using shields from enemies primarily as defense against ranged fighters.
• Any shields they get need to be looted. And due to an abysmally slow learn rate, will be extremely clumsy with them without danger rooms or lots of live combat training.
• All of the above means that while wasps can use shields with some oafishness, they A. Cannot produce them or use them in sieges, B. are handicapped to the point they require considerably longer than anyone else save possibly warlock minions to become decent at using them, and C. need to fight or capture enemies to even touch one.

Another two points to this, player controlled units will not use shields unless they are told to do so or their uniform specifies it and sieges of course can only bring what the entity has access to without using reactions. With such a severe handicap that offers only a faint hope of any usefulness and the fact all invader shields tend to be made of rather heavy materials, many would likely find it easier to just scrap the shields rather than use them at all (some may do so on principle to save on weight, keeping thier soldiers light fast at the expense of protection.) However, it still provides an option for those who do want to use them, without cutting shields out in a very arbitrary manner or forcing them to have to do some raw diving to allow wasps to use them themselves.

They are, after all, intelligent (or their hivemind is.) Better to have them just have a noticeable disability rather than flat out crippling them with an apparent case of "wasp does not understand the arm board at all or why food uses them," especially in larger fights and against archers, and to get them the player must face the enemy or trap and disarm them for the things.

[heydude6]

Ok I can agree with that. Changes will be made if players complain about shields being op.

Also you don't sound like a jerkass

[Splint]

Also you don't sound like a jerkass

Thank you. I'm always worried about coming off like some over-entitled or domineering managerial prick or something when I offer ideas on things.

[than402]

no, you don't. you just offered your opinion. so, 20% learn rate then and we'll see if it needs further balancing.

so, i'm still looking for a way to create a language file. if anyone knows how, please let me know.

also, i started my test hive Hatu, or Mossybake. i started with untrained wasps, a pair of elves, a pair of gnomes, 3 hornet bees, lots of food and some picks and battleaxes. the area has lots of metal (among which wolfram), a river, comfortable weather and temperature,flux (though this is moot, wasps can't produce steel or mithril),trees and interesting wildlife. i like to say: wood pulper + sleepless wasps= the fastest wall i ever built! seriously, wood pulper is awesome. maybe a bit too awesome, but i'm more concerned with produced stuff rather than constructions. i planted some farms (wasps have both indoor and outdoor plants) and started gathering plants. this fort's objectives are to test waspen early game and how balanced the shrine is. therefore, i will rush for the shrine and see how long it takes me before i have an army of megabeasts, while simultaneously trying not to get slaughtered by enemies.

[Meph]

pst, but here is an idea: foreign shields. Simply dont enable them in the entity file. If you do, people can make shields from any single metal bar, and from any single log. Since DF combat doesnt care if a shield is paper or steel, wooden shields are the best and cheapest.

If you want to make it harder, simply make shields with a custom reaction. Make a new building for it, or add a reaction to the craftsman, which is just a bit more expensive than the normal shield reaction. For example 5 wooden logs, or some special ingredients (wooden frame, metal/chitin plate, leather straps), and done. Suddenly you dont have cheap shields flying around everywhere.

You cant take them on embark or order them from caravans either. Problem solved.

[Splint]

I already suggested that earlier and it was shot down.

Could always limit them to bucklers or some very poor shield substitute (say a... I dunno, parry guard that has less block chance than a regular buckler and only amount to a roundshield with 3 combined?) Might do the job, forcing them to loot or otherwise manufacture better shields.

the point is not to make it difficult for them to gain shields, the point is to stop shield using from being a tactic at all

Granted my wording could have been better and all but still.

[heydude6]

true. I preferred the harvesting shields from invaders approach that splint also suggested.

Anyway I quickly sketched up some aberrant and praetorian sprites:



The one on the left is just a wasp peasant, the one in the center is the praetorian and the one on the right is an abherrant. What do you think?

Spoiler: Form your own opinion before you read this (click to show/hide)

My main complaint about the praetorian is that the chest seems too plain. When I try to make the yellow darker it just makes it greener even though I want it oranger. Any advice?

[smakemupagus]

so, i'm still looking for a way to create a language file. if anyone knows how, please let me know.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=47332.0

DFLang: generate realistic language raws, every time.

DFLang is a tool for creating unique modded languages.

It takes a collection of words from one or more existing languages and randomly generates a number of additional words that sound like they could belong to that language. It takes these generated words and uses them to construct a well-formatted raw file of the language_###.txt variety.

(For instance, if you give DFLang a bunch of hebrew words, it might generate words like "oshebah" and "anayyim"; if you give it some chinese words you'll get things like "yinxiu" and "conguan"; if you give it both you might get "nefenguo" or "baochol".)

But wait, there's more! You know how in DF most words are associated with symbols like FLOWERY or UNTOWARD? DFLang gives you the option of generating a root for each of these symbols. Words associated with a symbol will be very likely to include the corresponding root.

(For instance, if the root for FLOWERY is ''fol", then BERRY might be assigned the word "efolab" and BLOSSOM might get "desafolu".)

[than402]

thank you, smake

concerning the shields i gave them an exp rate of 20% and removed them from the entity file. if wasps want to use three shields they must import them or harvest them.

true. I preferred the harvesting shields from invaders approach that splint also suggested.

Anyway I quickly sketched up some aberrant and praetorian sprites:



The one on the left is just a wasp peasant, the one in the center is the praetorian and the one on the right is an abherrant. What do you think?

Spoiler: Form your own opinion before you read this (click to show/hide)

My main complaint about the praetorian is that the chest seems too plain. When I try to make the yellow darker it just makes it greener even though I want it oranger. Any advice?

they both looks fine to me.