Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Shook]

The problem is, it doesn't matter how extremely adversed you are to hard work, or how much you don't want to feel like that, hating work is still all it is. Saying you hate getting up early in the morning and hate people bossing you around is EXACTLY what everyone else feels. Like really, really hates it - to the point of blackout insanity.

I can confirm that the part about getting up in the morning is flat out false. More than one of my friends from back when i studied geology is a morning person, who even in the weekends get up at shit o'clock because that's how they want to go about their days. That's great for them, of course, because society is generally structured around morning people, much to my dismay. But that isn't really what this thread is about, because i've known that for a LONG time now. (likewise am i also entirely aware that nobody likes being bossed around)

Do you think the guy that got laid off his good job and now works in the shitty fast food joint turning over burgers all day whilst getting screamed at by some scrawny teenager on a power trip is NOT hating it with every. single. fucking. ounce as much as you are?!!!?

I can't relate to this example, and shouting at me STILL doesn't work. I am in absolutely no doubt that ANYONE would utterly hate being in that situation, though.

I think the problem is that you've turned it into too big of a problem (that somehow hating work = a mental problem) and that you feel as though 'you hurt more than others'. Regardless of how much you feel as though you're trying to get through this, you first need to understand - and really, really understand - that your aversion (or burning hatred) for hard work is no different from anyone else's - you're just saying it whilst everyone else is keeping it inside. Good on you for saying it, but at the same time, you're not going to get anywhere in life by doing so.

Hating work alone is not a mental problem, obviously, it's more how much difficulty i have with dealing with it. Whether or not i'm making it a bigger deal than it is is pretty much impossible to say, likewise with the level of hate that i feel in relation to others, unless we somehow find a way to objectively and absolutely quantify such things. It could be that what i'm feeling is actually several orders of magnitude LOWER than what others do, and it could be that i'm having feelings that would flat out burn the cortices of my peers if they were transplanted directly. It's also fairly irrelevant, really. Everyone else feeling the same strong negative feeling doesn't automatically make it either okay or acceptable, and rather makes me think that society is horribly defunct for FORCING people into soul-crushing situations just to stay alive (so they can have their souls crushed some more). Naïve, delusional, stupid, call me what you will, but there's something inherently WRONG with a world where it's normal to hate your job and hate getting up and hate HATE HATE. It may be how things are, but it still sucks.

For the record, I really do care in a way, because I used to have a similar mind set. I could coast along and just about pass at most things, I hated applying myself and hated anyone telling me what to do (and would lash out if I was) - eventually I was made to face it through a number of situations and realised that you just can't get anywhere without determination and work.

I'd recommend the military for anyone - if they break you, they'll piece you back together stronger than before. If that's not your thing, try a martial art. Something that takes discipline and where you have to work through the pain to get results. Overall, just apply yourself to something no matter how much it 'hurts'. Change your personal struggle from 'how can I not hate work so much' to 'how can I dominate Info.Tech./Judo/StarCraft and be the greatest the world has ever seen.' - that's how you get somewhere, and as soon as you start really, really dominating, all thoughts of hard work will disappear.

I'm not interested in being broken once more. I was mentally SHATTERED back in elementary school due to bullying, and i didn't recover all the pieces. I like what you're saying here, though; i definitely need to change the way i think about many things. I tend to think "how can i get around this with minimum effort", which in some cases is actually beneficial, but is more like pissing myself to stay warm when it comes to studying and working. I like the term "dominate", because it's totally true that the few classes i've managed to dominate were the least stressful of them all. For the next set of classes, i'm going to try my damnedest to engage Operation "Dominate This Shit".

It sounds like you've got a couple "executive functioning" skills that could use some work. Maybe you should try reading a book on it? They have some really good hints. I'm currently in a similar situation with my time-management skills, where no amount of further ass-kicking is going to get the desired result. I initially started reading up on this stuff because I have to teach students with brain damage and ADHD how to math, and then I was like: "Huh, actually, I have a lot of weaknesses in this area too, and I could be living a much better life!"

Give it a try? I'm using "Smart but Scattered" right now, but I'm thinking about buying this for myself.

Ooh, this seems interesting! If only i could get a free preview somehow, shipping costs to Denmark are astronomical. :v

[Retropunch]

Hating work alone is not a mental problem, obviously, it's more how much difficulty i have with dealing with it. Whether or not i'm making it a bigger deal than it is is pretty much impossible to say, likewise with the level of hate that i feel in relation to others, unless we somehow find a way to objectively and absolutely quantify such things. It could be that what i'm feeling is actually several orders of magnitude LOWER than what others do, and it could be that i'm having feelings that would flat out burn the cortices of my peers if they were transplanted directly. It's also fairly irrelevant, really. Everyone else feeling the same strong negative feeling doesn't automatically make it either okay or acceptable, and rather makes me think that society is horribly defunct for FORCING people into soul-crushing situations just to stay alive (so they can have their souls crushed some more). Naïve, delusional, stupid, call me what you will, but there's something inherently WRONG with a world where it's normal to hate your job and hate getting up and hate HATE HATE. It may be how things are, but it still sucks.

I agree (as do most other people) - the whole system is terrible in a lot of ways. As you've identified though, that's just the way things are for better or worse (regardless of how bad the system is, the human race has achieved a hell of a lot!). The only way to rise above it is to be better (or strive to be better at least) than everyone else. As the saying goes 'it's a dog eat dog world' and that is completely true. Once you get really, really good at something, all the rest falls away, because the world only cares about winners. You don't have to be a rockstar, just find something and be determined to be amazing at it.

For the record, I really do care in a way, because I used to have a similar mind set. I could coast along and just about pass at most things, I hated applying myself and hated anyone telling me what to do (and would lash out if I was) - eventually I was made to face it through a number of situations and realised that you just can't get anywhere without determination and work.

I'd recommend the military for anyone - if they break you, they'll piece you back together stronger than before. If that's not your thing, try a martial art. Something that takes discipline and where you have to work through the pain to get results. Overall, just apply yourself to something no matter how much it 'hurts'. Change your personal struggle from 'how can I not hate work so much' to 'how can I dominate Info.Tech./Judo/StarCraft and be the greatest the world has ever seen.' - that's how you get somewhere, and as soon as you start really, really dominating, all thoughts of hard work will disappear.

I'm not interested in being broken once more. I was mentally SHATTERED back in elementary school due to bullying, and i didn't recover all the pieces. I like what you're saying here, though; i definitely need to change the way i think about many things. I tend to think "how can i get around this with minimum effort", which in some cases is actually beneficial, but is more like pissing myself to stay warm when it comes to studying and working. I like the term "dominate", because it's totally true that the few classes i've managed to dominate were the least stressful of them all. For the next set of classes, i'm going to try my damnedest to engage Operation "Dominate This Shit".
[/quote]

I'm really glad to hear you say that - it's 100% the right attitude and making whatever subject it is your bitch will make you feel 100% better about everything. However, if you don't make it the first time, remember the saying 'The master has failed more times than the beginner has even tried' - it sounds clichéd, but it's something to live by.

Really, I wish you all the best, just stop making excuses and start bringing your A game to everything!

[Antsan]

Rant incoming.
Shook, if you want me to remove it just say so.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'd recommend the military for anyone - if they break you, they'll piece you back together stronger than before.

No. Bashing someone in the face with a frying pan will never be the way to make someone stronger, no matter how good the following surgery is. This kind of stupidity is what makes our educational system the clusterfuck it is now, against the recommendations of people who actually know what they are talking about, like, you know, neuroscientists. The same goes for the military - it makes you better at ignoring your own needs, but it doesn't make you a better person and certainly not a better person for a well functioning society. Anyone who claims that has never seen what an education free of forced discipline can do. I admire those people for their mental stability and pure force of will. If they want something, they'll make sure they get it, and definitely not via complaining or demanding someone else does it for them. I strive

'how can I dominate Info.Tech./Judo/StarCraft and be the greatest the world has ever seen.'' - that's how you get somewhere, and as soon as you start really, really dominating, all thoughts of hard work will disappear.

This kind of attitude has many people I know severely depressed. Having unrealistic expectations about yourself will break you.
That aside - I don't want to dominate and I would hate myself if I'd try to. It goes against anything I think of as right.

Everyone else feeling the same strong negative feeling doesn't automatically make it either okay or acceptable, and rather makes me think that society is horribly defunct for FORCING people into soul-crushing situations just to stay alive (so they can have their souls crushed some more). Naïve, delusional, stupid, call me what you will, but there's something inherently WRONG with a world where it's normal to hate your job and hate getting up and hate HATE HATE. It may be how things are, but it still sucks.

I think this is something that a lot of people just ignore. And then they wonder why people are assholes and then go on to declare it "the human nature". I think being stressed all the time explains a lot.

I agree (as do most other people) - the whole system is terrible in a lot of ways. As you've identified though, that's just the way things are for better or worse (regardless of how bad the system is, the human race has achieved a hell of a lot!). The only way to rise above it is to be better (or strive to be better at least) than everyone else.

The problem I see with that is that "being better" for me means "don't take part in that shit, no matter what it costs you". It boggles the mind how "be better than anyone else" in this context could ever mean "kick your ideals out the window and do what everyone else does, only more extreme". What does that accomplish?

As the saying goes 'it's a dog eat dog world' and that is completely true. Once you get really, really good at something, all the rest falls away, because the world only cares about winners. You don't have to be a rockstar, just find something and be determined to be amazing at it.

It's exactly what you learn after being in the military and for some reason those people belive that everything not related to a battle field (metaphorical or real) is not part of "the real world". If you haven't been to the military and seen action you haven't been "in the real world" yet. The same goes for people working in certain fields where pressure/risk is especially high. Also people who live in particularly dangerous areas - if you live somewhere, where its safe, you haven't been "to the real world".
That's just wrong. The real world is incredibly complex and for some reason those people seem to think that bad experiences are somehow more of an experience than good ones. They seem to think that one can only learn through suffering. Modern research proves them wrong, but misanthrophy is cool right now, so tough luck for modern research.
This leads to ignoring the kind of projects I was talking about earlier. Somehow they aren't valid. They are "to good to be true" or "removed from reality" or "they're only stupid hippies either way"... I have no idea what other excuses are used so you won't have to think about what you and your peers might be doing wrong. Staking a claim on "the real world" is just a socially accepted way of ignoring facts.
There is no "dog eat dog" in those projects, no "only caring about winners", not even the need to be amazing at anything, only the need to be a decent human being, willing to eschew luxury (and only this is what seems to keep away most people (if one leaves out "but communists/hippies!" non-objections) and I don't see why I should care about other peoples luxury and destroy myself for them) and work for what you actually want.

Really, I wish you all the best, just stop making excuses and start bringing your A game to everything!

This is another thing which is just wrong and it ties in to what I said about luxury.
I don't want luxury. I want food, I want a home, I want to stay healthy and I want nice people around me. I don't care for AAA-games, shopping malls (have you looked at those things? If we didn't have those we could achieve so much more, like housing hundreds of homeless for each, giving them food, clean water, showers, a place to sleep, access to electricity...), hundreds of TV channels around the clock, computers for everyone (I don't live without anyone but I know that I could), multiple cars per family... It's alright when other people want this, but somehow they're expecting me to help them achieve that.
Not only that, it is expected of me to lie (look here for reference: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139072.0 - lying about myself is expected. I don't consider it okay just because everyone else does it), to work for someone whose ethics I don't agree with (if I quit a job because my employer does something I am definitely not okay with and end up unemployed because of that I think I am going to be blamed for that) and to do more than the contracts I sign with my employer say I should do (why the hell do we even have those then? Not as a baseline, because only fulfilling the contract obviously is not the baseline).
Basically I don't see why I should bring my A game when I just want to get by and be left alone by people who have a problem with that. My A game is for my own betterment (which includes the betterment of the people I share my life with), not for finding a place where I can exist if I am willing to do the actually necessary work - the latter should be a given in any civilized society, otherwise it can hardly be called civilized in my eyes.

The biggest problem I have with your attitude is not how it affects me but how it affects anyone I am in contact with. I know plenty of people who provide incredible vlue to me just with their basic personality. They can share unusual insights, they are calm and collected and can use that to think about complex stuff which bothers me. They provide incredible value to me.
But then they get money problems. They are forced to apply to jobs - normally to some kind of job which doesn't even provide any relief for basic necessities but some job providing some kind of luxury - for instance work in a call center. They become stressed, they loose their insights, they don't even have time to talk to me anymore and if they have it they now spend it watching TV, playing games or consuming drugs (like alcohol). The kind of insights they can share in the few instances where they have the time and mental capacity to do so are mostly colored by depression and generally less valuable than the kind of insight they were able to provide before. Coming in contact with "the real world" doesn't make them more insightful, helpful or beneficial for society. Practically they become almost mindless drones with rare moments of consciousness about their awful situation. And that's only if they actually do get a job.
I loose, they loose, some guy with lots of money wins, lot's of people gain a negligible amount of luxury. I don't see why that's good or even neccessary.

[Meph]

Just a little addition: Military service in Germany was actually pretty good for character building, and most people that were in my unit think the same way. Than again, all of them volunteered to be there, obviously forcing someone into it would have contrary results. But I enjoyed my time there immensely. 

Edit: I agree about all the rest with Antsan. Except maybe the "unrealisticly high expecations of yourself will break you", which I wouldnt say myself. Rest is pretty neat, and when it comes to "bringing their A-game", with 100% effort for 100% results, I often redirect people to the Pareto Principle. Rather bring 20% effort for 80% results and be happy with it, than sacrifice a lot more of your time and effort just for these last few steps.

[alamoes]

I'm going to say that I have the exact same problems that you do.  Have you ever thought about psychology?  Also, just saying, if I am correct, then you are extremely lucky that I just happened to come along and say hi.  I think it is a 1/100 chance.  I estimate that no more than 6 or 7 people will visit this post and respond.  But yeah, I've been thinking about the military, and must say that normal soldiering life is not for me.  While I would be able to be extremely disciplined, I'm pretty sure I'd start out below the ability of normal people at mundane stuff (As shown in Marching Band). 

But yeah, go look at psychology.  I'm currently looking into it, and it is pretty open ended (they get away with a lot of stuff).  Yes, there will be those parts of it that you don't like (DAMN YOU FREUD).  But yeah.  Go psychology.  And helping people manage their psyche is a pretty entertaining thought, for me at least.  Doesn't require much effort either.  And I'm generally good at it. 

[Retropunch]

Antsan, I do see where you're coming from, but I wasn't telling Shook that he should 'work for the man' or become a drone to society, but to strive to better him/herself. S/He could become a champion basket weaver, or create the worlds greatest freeware and that's fine. I'd say that whilst you can become a slave to society and the rat race, you can equally become a slave to futility and mediocrity. You seem to be someone who wants to see the human race improve and get out of the cycle we're in, so surely it's better to strive to better yourself (and it through your achievements) rather than just shun everything because you don't like it?

As you pointed out, the problem does come at money. So you need some realism, and as much as you can hate the system - that's the one that we've got. So what I was trying to encourage was just for Shook to find what s/he loves and really go for it as that's a THOUSAND times better than being rubbish at everything and having to drudge through your time in a dead end job, scraping away enough for a pension.
 
I 100% do NOT agree that pushing yourself or having high expectations will break you. Never have I seen that be the case and only have I seen the opposite to be the case.

Lastly, while the Pareto Principle makes a lot of sense, the problem is that you can't measure effort and putting 80% effort in tends to gradually be less. It's the mediocrity thing again - why settle for second best? Sure, don't kill yourself over things of little consequence, but for the big picture things, why bother putting in less than everything you've got?     

[gimlet]

First, I think you should seriously question exactly how much really is self-diagnosed "mental illness" and "feelings so much stronger than normal" and how much is 20 years of bad habits with no real consequences.  And no, aggro from parents/teachers, even bad grades, is not "real consequences".  And how much your describing it as such is really an excuse not to do anything about it.

Willpower is in some senses like a muscle - if you haven't been exercising it, it's gonna be pretty damn flabby.  And trying to use it the first few times WILL be painful and frustrating.  You'll likely fail a few times, maybe a lot - keep trying.

"other people telling me what to do" - yeah, as mentioned, almost nobody likes that.  And really, in the long run, you're only going to do painful things if YOU want something more than you dislike the pain.  In a lot of cases that means long (or at least medium) term goals, like "I want to not just pass this class, but understand the material well".  "I want to move out of my parents house and have a cool apartment with privacy" or "I want a car so I can do stuff and not get stuck moping around the house" (more common in USA than a lot of other places with better public transport, I'm not sure where you are).  Other than that, if you get in the habit of succeeding, maybe "the shame of failure" is enough to motivate at least through the daily grind.   "If I don't do it now I'll be in a much MUCH more painful hole next week" got me through a lot of studying.   A lot of guys don't really get in gear until they hit "holy shit I've got kids now, they need stuff and I don't want them to grow up in a mopey government-welfare lifestyle". 

Or maybe you're fine living your whole life as a flower child and raising your kids that way too - but make it your considered choice and not a default choice because you're avoiding the pain of doing anything even slightly difficult.

I'd rail at you for being whiny and weak and all that, but I was just about the same at 20 - I think most of us were which is why you're getting a lot of pushback on the "it's so uniquely hard for  me".  Luckily for me, I really liked doing computer stuff, found out early enough that I could get a degree in it.  Then I liked doing it so much that the other bullshit parts of working were small potatoes compared to the fun I was having.  A couple jobs really did suck hard, those I moved on from.  Even parts of the good jobs sucked, but that is life, fortunately or unfortunately.  I actually wish I used those chances to learn better how to deal with "difficult people", but oh well, hindsight. 

And a lot of jobs were on balance pretty good - interesting stuff to do and learn, cool smart people to talk to, working together to get neat stuff accomplished.   It does seem to be easier if you're good at something.  And it's well worth trying, even trying a few different fields/industries, before you know enough to decide to reject it.   Also beware that entry level jobs do generally kind of suck - look at what the slightly more experienced guys are doing to evaluate if that's the way you want to go...

[Shook]

First, I think you should seriously question exactly how much really is self-diagnosed "mental illness" and "feelings so much stronger than normal" and how much is 20 years of bad habits with no real consequences.  And no, aggro from parents/teachers, even bad grades, is not "real consequences".  And how much your describing it as such is really an excuse not to do anything about it.

Please note that i am well aware of how it's completely impossible to actually gauge the intensity of my feelings versus what others feel, and that i'm not going to call myself actually mentally ill before i've been diagnosed. Mental issues, yes, that i will say, because it's a fact that bullying has left some nasty marks. But yes, some of it probably also stems from the lack of real consequences when procrastinating.

Willpower is in some senses like a muscle - if you haven't been exercising it, it's gonna be pretty damn flabby.  And trying to use it the first few times WILL be painful and frustrating.  You'll likely fail a few times, maybe a lot - keep trying.

Hm, might be something to this. My willpower might be the flabbiest muscle i have, and i'm not exactly a strong fellow.

"other people telling me what to do" - yeah, as mentioned, almost nobody likes that.  And really, in the long run, you're only going to do painful things if YOU want something more than you dislike the pain.  In a lot of cases that means long (or at least medium) term goals, like "I want to not just pass this class, but understand the material well".  "I want to move out of my parents house and have a cool apartment with privacy" or "I want a car so I can do stuff and not get stuck moping around the house" (more common in USA than a lot of other places with better public transport, I'm not sure where you are).  Other than that, if you get in the habit of succeeding, maybe "the shame of failure" is enough to motivate at least through the daily grind.   "If I don't do it now I'll be in a much MUCH more painful hole next week" got me through a lot of studying.   A lot of guys don't really get in gear until they hit "holy shit I've got kids now, they need stuff and I don't want them to grow up in a mopey government-welfare lifestyle".

I live in Denmark, in a place where plenty of busses go around, so getting a car isn't strictly necessary per sé. But, as you say, the looming threat of a worse fate does serve as a pretty good motivation, because in the hypothetical scenario that i were to drop out, the question would be "well, now what?", and i wouldn't have any answer to that. Thus, the lesser evil right now is to keep at it.

Or maybe you're fine living your whole life as a flower child and raising your kids that way too - but make it your considered choice and not a default choice because you're avoiding the pain of doing anything even slightly difficult.

Honestly, i'd be fine with living as a flower child, but i know it isn't going to happen. As for eventual kids, i'd try my damnedest to make sure that they at least don't end up being as clueless about everything as i am.

I'd rail at you for being whiny and weak and all that, but I was just about the same at 20 - I think most of us were which is why you're getting a lot of pushback on the "it's so uniquely hard for  me".  Luckily for me, I really liked doing computer stuff, found out early enough that I could get a degree in it.  Then I liked doing it so much that the other bullshit parts of working were small potatoes compared to the fun I was having.  A couple jobs really did suck hard, those I moved on from.  Even parts of the good jobs sucked, but that is life, fortunately or unfortunately.  I actually wish I used those chances to learn better how to deal with "difficult people", but oh well, hindsight. 

Forgive me for giving off the impression that i think i have it harder than others; it's mostly based on observation, and observation can't pick up on inner feelings. The folks around me tend to SEEM like they have an easier time staying attentive and keeping up, but for all i know, this could be a complete lie. I don't know if others just bottle away their feelings more than i do, or if i'm just terrible at picking up clues, but in general it seems like most people worry a lot less about things than i do, and have a MUCH easier time getting homework done. As mentioned though, i don't KNOW if this is the case, it's just what i inevitably assume based on what i see. I'm not going to lambast you for considering me weak and whiny, by the way. I realize my own weakness enough to ask for help, and whiny? Well, i tend to overdramatize things. :v

And a lot of jobs were on balance pretty good - interesting stuff to do and learn, cool smart people to talk to, working together to get neat stuff accomplished.   It does seem to be easier if you're good at something.  And it's well worth trying, even trying a few different fields/industries, before you know enough to decide to reject it.   Also beware that entry level jobs do generally kind of suck - look at what the slightly more experienced guys are doing to evaluate if that's the way you want to go...

Hm, that's interesting. There's just not a lot of things to try out at the moment, so i hope that a few doors will open once i get a bit further.

Antsan, I do see where you're coming from, but I wasn't telling Shook that he should 'work for the man' or become a drone to society, but to strive to better him/herself. S/He could become a champion basket weaver, or create the worlds greatest freeware and that's fine. I'd say that whilst you can become a slave to society and the rat race, you can equally become a slave to futility and mediocrity. You seem to be someone who wants to see the human race improve and get out of the cycle we're in, so surely it's better to strive to better yourself (and it through your achievements) rather than just shun everything because you don't like it?

As you pointed out, the problem does come at money. So you need some realism, and as much as you can hate the system - that's the one that we've got. So what I was trying to encourage was just for Shook to find what s/he loves and really go for it as that's a THOUSAND times better than being rubbish at everything and having to drudge through your time in a dead end job, scraping away enough for a pension.
 
I 100% do NOT agree that pushing yourself or having high expectations will break you. Never have I seen that be the case and only have I seen the opposite to be the case.

Lastly, while the Pareto Principle makes a lot of sense, the problem is that you can't measure effort and putting 80% effort in tends to gradually be less. It's the mediocrity thing again - why settle for second best? Sure, don't kill yourself over things of little consequence, but for the big picture things, why bother putting in less than everything you've got?     

I'm a dude. :v
But, in order to clarify things a little, what i've picked out from all the things you've been saying is that i need to be more enthusiastic and apply myself more. Not necessarily 100% for EVERYTHING (that tends to burn me out rather quickly), but more than i do right now. Up till the beginning of university, i've been able to coast along with a modicum of effort, getting decent grades and all that. But then, university happened. Suddenly, things weren't exactly simple any more, and i have to bring myself out of the lazy hole. That's difficult when you've been nice and comfy in there for the past 13 years. Unfortunately, the lazy hole has become more of a life style than a bad habit, and i'm sure that most (if not all) of you know exactly how hard it is to change an ingrown life style. That doesn't mean i'm not going to try though, because approaching adversity with enthusiasm is a desirable trait in a LOT of places.

I'm going to say that I have the exact same problems that you do.  Have you ever thought about psychology?  Also, just saying, if I am correct, then you are extremely lucky that I just happened to come along and say hi.  I think it is a 1/100 chance.  I estimate that no more than 6 or 7 people will visit this post and respond.  But yeah, I've been thinking about the military, and must say that normal soldiering life is not for me.  While I would be able to be extremely disciplined, I'm pretty sure I'd start out below the ability of normal people at mundane stuff (As shown in Marching Band). 

But yeah, go look at psychology.  I'm currently looking into it, and it is pretty open ended (they get away with a lot of stuff).  Yes, there will be those parts of it that you don't like (DAMN YOU FREUD).  But yeah.  Go psychology.  And helping people manage their psyche is a pretty entertaining thought, for me at least.  Doesn't require much effort either.  And I'm generally good at it. 

I've had psychology class in high school, and while it was reasonably interesting, i don't think it's for me. I'm more of a creative/techy person than one who's good at identifying the intricacies of the human mind, although i'd be lying if i said i don't enjoy trying to help people feel better. Thanks for the suggestion, though!

Just a little addition: Military service in Germany was actually pretty good for character building, and most people that were in my unit think the same way. Than again, all of them volunteered to be there, obviously forcing someone into it would have contrary results. But I enjoyed my time there immensely. 

Edit: I agree about all the rest with Antsan. Except maybe the "unrealisticly high expecations of yourself will break you", which I wouldnt say myself. Rest is pretty neat, and when it comes to "bringing their A-game", with 100% effort for 100% results, I often redirect people to the Pareto Principle. Rather bring 20% effort for 80% results and be happy with it, than sacrifice a lot more of your time and effort just for these last few steps.

I like this principle, but unfortunately for me, 20% effort is rarely enough to bring around 80% results, barring classes that i have an exceptionally easy time with. Oftentimes, it's actually a bit reversed; the first many percent give me the least results, whereas the last few give me the most. Unfortunately yet again, i'm often too exhausted after the first 60% to pour out the last 40.

Rant incoming.
Shook, if you want me to remove it just say so.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'd recommend the military for anyone - if they break you, they'll piece you back together stronger than before.

No. Bashing someone in the face with a frying pan will never be the way to make someone stronger, no matter how good the following surgery is. This kind of stupidity is what makes our educational system the clusterfuck it is now, against the recommendations of people who actually know what they are talking about, like, you know, neuroscientists. The same goes for the military - it makes you better at ignoring your own needs, but it doesn't make you a better person and certainly not a better person for a well functioning society. Anyone who claims that has never seen what an education free of forced discipline can do. I admire those people for their mental stability and pure force of will. If they want something, they'll make sure they get it, and definitely not via complaining or demanding someone else does it for them. I strive

'how can I dominate Info.Tech./Judo/StarCraft and be the greatest the world has ever seen.'' - that's how you get somewhere, and as soon as you start really, really dominating, all thoughts of hard work will disappear.

This kind of attitude has many people I know severely depressed. Having unrealistic expectations about yourself will break you.
That aside - I don't want to dominate and I would hate myself if I'd try to. It goes against anything I think of as right.

Everyone else feeling the same strong negative feeling doesn't automatically make it either okay or acceptable, and rather makes me think that society is horribly defunct for FORCING people into soul-crushing situations just to stay alive (so they can have their souls crushed some more). Naïve, delusional, stupid, call me what you will, but there's something inherently WRONG with a world where it's normal to hate your job and hate getting up and hate HATE HATE. It may be how things are, but it still sucks.

I think this is something that a lot of people just ignore. And then they wonder why people are assholes and then go on to declare it "the human nature". I think being stressed all the time explains a lot.

I agree (as do most other people) - the whole system is terrible in a lot of ways. As you've identified though, that's just the way things are for better or worse (regardless of how bad the system is, the human race has achieved a hell of a lot!). The only way to rise above it is to be better (or strive to be better at least) than everyone else.

The problem I see with that is that "being better" for me means "don't take part in that shit, no matter what it costs you". It boggles the mind how "be better than anyone else" in this context could ever mean "kick your ideals out the window and do what everyone else does, only more extreme". What does that accomplish?

As the saying goes 'it's a dog eat dog world' and that is completely true. Once you get really, really good at something, all the rest falls away, because the world only cares about winners. You don't have to be a rockstar, just find something and be determined to be amazing at it.

It's exactly what you learn after being in the military and for some reason those people belive that everything not related to a battle field (metaphorical or real) is not part of "the real world". If you haven't been to the military and seen action you haven't been "in the real world" yet. The same goes for people working in certain fields where pressure/risk is especially high. Also people who live in particularly dangerous areas - if you live somewhere, where its safe, you haven't been "to the real world".
That's just wrong. The real world is incredibly complex and for some reason those people seem to think that bad experiences are somehow more of an experience than good ones. They seem to think that one can only learn through suffering. Modern research proves them wrong, but misanthrophy is cool right now, so tough luck for modern research.
This leads to ignoring the kind of projects I was talking about earlier. Somehow they aren't valid. They are "to good to be true" or "removed from reality" or "they're only stupid hippies either way"... I have no idea what other excuses are used so you won't have to think about what you and your peers might be doing wrong. Staking a claim on "the real world" is just a socially accepted way of ignoring facts.
There is no "dog eat dog" in those projects, no "only caring about winners", not even the need to be amazing at anything, only the need to be a decent human being, willing to eschew luxury (and only this is what seems to keep away most people (if one leaves out "but communists/hippies!" non-objections) and I don't see why I should care about other peoples luxury and destroy myself for them) and work for what you actually want.

Really, I wish you all the best, just stop making excuses and start bringing your A game to everything!

This is another thing which is just wrong and it ties in to what I said about luxury.
I don't want luxury. I want food, I want a home, I want to stay healthy and I want nice people around me. I don't care for AAA-games, shopping malls (have you looked at those things? If we didn't have those we could achieve so much more, like housing hundreds of homeless for each, giving them food, clean water, showers, a place to sleep, access to electricity...), hundreds of TV channels around the clock, computers for everyone (I don't live without anyone but I know that I could), multiple cars per family... It's alright when other people want this, but somehow they're expecting me to help them achieve that.
Not only that, it is expected of me to lie (look here for reference: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139072.0 - lying about myself is expected. I don't consider it okay just because everyone else does it), to work for someone whose ethics I don't agree with (if I quit a job because my employer does something I am definitely not okay with and end up unemployed because of that I think I am going to be blamed for that) and to do more than the contracts I sign with my employer say I should do (why the hell do we even have those then? Not as a baseline, because only fulfilling the contract obviously is not the baseline).
Basically I don't see why I should bring my A game when I just want to get by and be left alone by people who have a problem with that. My A game is for my own betterment (which includes the betterment of the people I share my life with), not for finding a place where I can exist if I am willing to do the actually necessary work - the latter should be a given in any civilized society, otherwise it can hardly be called civilized in my eyes.

The biggest problem I have with your attitude is not how it affects me but how it affects anyone I am in contact with. I know plenty of people who provide incredible vlue to me just with their basic personality. They can share unusual insights, they are calm and collected and can use that to think about complex stuff which bothers me. They provide incredible value to me.
But then they get money problems. They are forced to apply to jobs - normally to some kind of job which doesn't even provide any relief for basic necessities but some job providing some kind of luxury - for instance work in a call center. They become stressed, they loose their insights, they don't even have time to talk to me anymore and if they have it they now spend it watching TV, playing games or consuming drugs (like alcohol). The kind of insights they can share in the few instances where they have the time and mental capacity to do so are mostly colored by depression and generally less valuable than the kind of insight they were able to provide before. Coming in contact with "the real world" doesn't make them more insightful, helpful or beneficial for society. Practically they become almost mindless drones with rare moments of consciousness about their awful situation. And that's only if they actually do get a job.
I loose, they loose, some guy with lots of money wins, lot's of people gain a negligible amount of luxury. I don't see why that's good or even neccessary.

It's fine, i agree with you on many points. As Retropunch said though, bringing ones A game to everything doesn't have to mean that you sacrifice your soul to Yog-Sothoth at the behest of your boss, it just means that you give what you've got despite not necessarily liking it. I'm not really cool with having to spend ANY effort on undesirable activities, but if i am to carve out a niche in this reality, i'm going to have to face some difficulties. I WISH i could just magically be given optimal living conditions and enough time to do whatever i want (who doesn't?), but it's getting time for me to put on the Realisti-Goggles^TM, because i wouldn't mind having certain luxuries in the adult life that's knocking on my door.

[Gentlefish]

Oh I totally get The Lazy Hole. That was all of school ever for me. Then I made it to Uni. First semester I dropped out of three classes and started off with a 2.0 GPA.

I'm. Uh. Doing better now. It took time to adjust and I'm still a lazy bastard when it comes to homework. But I've found what I like. And I'm going to keep doing it until I get better.

So find what you like and strive to make it a paying job. It's gonna suck sometimes. But I know I have a good future to look forward to.

[BFEL]

Willpower is in some senses like a muscle - if you haven't been exercising it, it's gonna be pretty damn flabby.  And trying to use it the first few times WILL be painful and frustrating.  You'll likely fail a few times, maybe a lot - keep trying.

Hm, might be something to this. My willpower might be the flabbiest muscle i have, and i'm not exactly a strong fellow.

I WILL CRUSH YOUR WILLPOWER WITH MY WILLPOWER, THEN I WILL DEVOUR IT AND ADD IT TO MY OWN.

*note: BFEL is sleepy*

[Antsan]

I feel I've made a severe mistake. I am sorry about the tone of what I wrote and some irresponsible generalizations I made.
I am also very thankful that anyone here kept calm despite my inflammatory manner. That's worth a lot, so, thank you.

Antsan, I do see where you're coming from, but I wasn't telling Shook that he should 'work for the man' or become a drone to society, but to strive to better him/herself. S/He could become a champion basket weaver, or create the worlds greatest freeware and that's fine. I'd say that whilst you can become a slave to society and the rat race, you can equally become a slave to futility and mediocrity. You seem to be someone who wants to see the human race improve and get out of the cycle we're in, so surely it's better to strive to better yourself (and it through your achievements) rather than just shun everything because you don't like it?

Yes, that is right. My general feeling is just that the problems in our world don't come from insufficient productivity but insufficient empathy (this is a simplification, but I hope you get what I actually want to say), which is basically what I am complaining about with that last paragraph - it always seems only to be about more productivity, not becoming a more accepting person.
Please note that this is only meant as a clarification, not as an attack or defense.

As you pointed out, the problem does come at money. So you need some realism, and as much as you can hate the system - that's the one that we've got. So what I was trying to encourage was just for Shook to find what s/he loves and really go for it as that's a THOUSAND times better than being rubbish at everything and having to drudge through your time in a dead end job, scraping away enough for a pension.
 
[...]

Lastly, while the Pareto Principle makes a lot of sense, the problem is that you can't measure effort and putting 80% effort in tends to gradually be less. It's the mediocrity thing again - why settle for second best? Sure, don't kill yourself over things of little consequence, but for the big picture things, why bother putting in less than everything you've got?

Retropunch, I misunderstood your meaning. I am sorry for my tone back there (which should be independent of me having misunderstood, but sadly I probably wouldn't have thought of it without your clarification ).

Just a little addition: Military service in Germany was actually pretty good for character building, and most people that were in my unit think the same way. Than again, all of them volunteered to be there, obviously forcing someone into it would have contrary results. But I enjoyed my time there immensely.

I should have referred to the "they break you and put you back together stronger than before" specifically and left my personal dislike of anything military out of it.

Edit: I agree about all the rest with Antsan. Except maybe the "unrealisticly high expecations of yourself will break you", which I wouldnt say myself.

I 100% do NOT agree that pushing yourself or having high expectations will break you. Never have I seen that be the case and only have I seen the opposite to be the case.

To clarify: I know quite a few people with clinical depression and for them aiming for the stars only ever seemed to make things worse until they decided to take things slowly and first get their life in order before they go beyond basic neccessities.
My blatant generalization is not valid.

[alamoes]

But yeah, honestly, if you are like me, you are probably reasonably good at and potentially enjoy identifying patterns.  That is about it.  So anyone got any ideas where that is useful?  Probably science, but I hate lots of math calculations.  Oh, and don't get me wrong, I'm not a very logical person.  Hence why I'm not telling you things in a logical manner.  Even though I hang around some very logical people.  Including quite a few psychopaths.  Oh there is other stuff as well, like being very passionate about the most random stuff ever.  But yeah, feelings all the way. 

I'm probably A) not describing myself well, B) being quite me centered.  The theory I have on people says that what I say should be relatable to Shook, because I as a person should be like Shook.  I don't know if it'll even work.  Well, we'll see.  Unfortunately I fear psychology would end up like Shook said, one of my passing hobbies.  So I still want an alternative.  Sociology would be nice, but there aren't any jobs in that. 

[Ai Shizuka]

There's a lot of "I like X, but I hate some parts of X" in this thread.
So I'll drop a couple lines here.
I love mountaineering. In all season, but especially in winter.
I fucking hate waking up at shit o'clock in the morning on saturdays and sundays. I hate freezing my ass in the early part of the ascent until I warm up. I hate freezing my ass while taking pictures from the summit. I hate turning back when I meet dangers like avalanche risk or shit weather. I hate driving back home when I'm done.
But I still do it, because everything else is glorious. Nothing else can provide the same feelings.

I'm talking about a hobby here. Something I do for fun. Not something to get paid and buy food.
The sooner you realize it, the better. You'll probably find a job you enjoy (I did), but it's going to involve something you hate. There's no way around it.

[Meph]

I can relate. (Every mountain you curse and grumble and say "I'll never do that shit again", just to pick the next larger mountain afterwards) Nothing beats the sense of achievements of you finished something you set out to do, be it a physical or intellectual feat.

[Shadowgandor]

But yeah, honestly, if you are like me, you are probably reasonably good at and potentially enjoy identifying patterns.  That is about it.  So anyone got any ideas where that is useful?  Probably science, but I hate lots of math calculations. 

You could try learning how to program. You not only identify patterns, but also create them yourself.