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Author Topic: [DF2014] Embark Profiles  (Read 19326 times)

SpoCk0nd0pe

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Re: [DF2014] Embark Profiles
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2014, 07:58:30 pm »

@khearn:
Do those adult, not full grown turkeys always provide a hide when butchered?
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soulmata

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Re: [DF2014] Embark Profiles
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2014, 08:38:36 pm »

What's the importance of discipline for 40.xx?

I generally embark with as little finished goods and as little skills as possible, for a few reasons. Namely:

* If the starting area is dangerous, I find it quicker to assemble a wooden wall (and if needed build a roof) than to dig, especially on Glaciers (my favorite embark!)
* Starting 7 will be too busy to do anything forever and never get to fight, be social, etc.
* Migrant waves seem to favor giving me whatever skills I don't have - so I get military and social skills a lot

So often my embarks have a ton of raw materials (coal, ores, animals, seeds) and a plethora of alcohol to keep them busy. RARELY I'll have a Marksdwarf and crank out a weapon for him in short order just to keep animals away... though on Evil Glaciers, he's... he's gonna die.

But now I see almost every build putting points in discipline. I'm presuming this is to avoid needless flight and job cancellations? Is my method of immediately putting up a wall missing something obvious? (besides that zombies can now scale those walls...)

Example embark I last took on 40.11 on a Glacier with a nearby Evil tile thrown in for good measure. I call it the "ICEHAULERSDELUXE", the goal of which is to minimize (or even eliminate) trading:

Code: [Select]
Iron Anvil
160 Alcohol (40 each)
7 Food (I slaughter my pack animals for more)
3-9 of each seed (9 plump helmet, 3-6 everything else)
50 Wood
30 Stone (magma safe, I turn into blocks usually, some into doors/hatches/mechanisms)
20-50 Bituminous Coal
3-15 Zinc, Iron, Tin, Copper Ores
1-3 Various mood materials (sand, glass, clay, anything my embark is unlikely to have)
2-6 Dogs
2-6 Cats
2-6 Pigs
2-6 Ducks, Turkeys

All remaining points go into 1-off or otherwise 1-use items I might have to have quickly, like a rope or cloth, lye or plaster, et cetera. I usually turn the Zinc into buckets for quick wells and prioritize getting my entrance sealed with cage and weapon traps, then irrigate stone.


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khearn

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Re: [DF2014] Embark Profiles
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2014, 10:11:20 pm »

@khearn:
Do those adult, not full grown turkeys always provide a hide when butchered?

I do not know. I would guess that any adult turkey would provide a hide, but that is only a guess.

   Keith
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Have them killed. Nothing solves a problem quite as effectively as simply having it killed.

ldog

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Re: [DF2014] Embark Profiles
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2014, 10:20:55 pm »

Good to see input from someone who does a more difficult embark since that changes things a lot, and it's not something I've stepped up to yet (but will probably be my next).

As far as general use of discipline, it's the latest rage I guess, I was thinking it was questionable until I started somewhere loaded with evil parrots! I also had a few other starts where there was some hostile wildlife on me from the word go, easily dispatched by dogs (fortunately wardog training takes almost no time) and a few punches from untrained but disciplined dwarves, but probably would have been a real problem for me otherwise. If you're in range of necromancers it's good to have some dwarfs who can haul away the corpses without getting creeped out too. So even on an otherwise environmentally friendly embark it has it's uses.

I think geese are the best all-rounder, but peafowl are just about as good iirc. Food production really is too easy, so differences in egg production rate or amount of meat per bird don't seem to make a lot of difference to me. Because of the cap you've got to get to butchering steadily at some point below 50 to keep new birds hatching, so fast maturity is important (which is where turkey isn't a winner). To me butchering is mainly about the leather, everything else is secondary. Being afaik (someone please correct me if I am wrong) you only get 1 hide per kill, time to maturity would seem to trump everything.
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soulmata

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Re: [DF2014] Embark Profiles
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2014, 10:33:45 pm »

Can you get hides from guineafowl? I always took Turkeys and Ducks, Ducks for endless eggs (It seemed to me that even a small amount of adult ducks could feed an insanely huge fort) and Turkeys for leather.

I'm considering amping up the challenge next time and making my dwarves go vegan.

I didn't consider the corpse hauling, that might be a good reason alone for the discipline.

Also, I laughed at "evil parrots".

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StagnantSoul

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Re: [DF2014] Embark Profiles
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2014, 10:35:12 pm »

Vegan fortes are easy. I didn't use butcher shops in between 34.11 all the way to 40.05.
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soulmata

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Re: [DF2014] Embark Profiles
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2014, 10:47:47 pm »

Vegan fortes are easy. I didn't use butcher shops in between 34.11 all the way to 40.05.

Sure.

Terrifying Glacier No-dirt No-clay No-trade forts that also happen to be vegan are slightly more interesting.

One spin on the Glacier embark I've been trying to make work for a while is an 11x11 above-ground tower. The biggest problem I have with it so far are contaminants that I can't clean up, or evil rain taking out all of my above-ground workers or contaminating the entire tower.
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StagnantSoul

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Re: [DF2014] Embark Profiles
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2014, 11:00:32 pm »

Try a roof. Roofs stop practically anything: climbers, flyers, things launched by bridges, rain.
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Quote from: Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum
I threw night creature blood into a night creature's heart and she pulled it out and bled to death.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Places to jibber madly at each other, got it
Quote from: NJW2000
If any of them are made of fire, throw stuff, run, and think non-flammable thoughts.

soulmata

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Re: [DF2014] Embark Profiles
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2014, 11:05:23 pm »

Oh I do build roofs, as I'm assembling the tower. You'll see in my first post above that I often will build walls and a roof before I dig just to secure my starting 7.

The problem is I will go to build the next level of the tower, and while I'm assembling the roof, evil rain that murders everybody will come in.

I think the highest I've managed to build before people start dying to fetid goo they can't clean off is about 8 stories.
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Tacomagic

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Re: [DF2014] Embark Profiles
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2014, 12:00:14 am »

Recently (within the last 2 weeks) I've started using the following strategy and have really come to like it:

I've found that, much like everyone else, points sunk into raising dwarves in anything but metal-based skill are rather inefficient (unless you're in an evil biome and need soldiers asap).  I go with a minimalist skill approach to this:

My dwarves look like this:
1x Armorsmith 5
1x Weaponsmith 5
5x Peasant

Since I typically don't create much metal craft stuff or furniture until much later in the fort, I find that I don't miss Blacksmith / Metal Crafter.  I almost always get a metal crafter or blacksmith in one of first three embarks, so I don't worry too much.  Everything else is trained easily enough, and my first 7 are so busy building infrastructure that they tend to end up as jack-of-all-trades anyway.

Items:
2x Copper Pick
1x Iron Anvil
80x Alcohol (split among available)
50x meat (I usually don't bother splitting it up so I get more barrels, but I split it enough to make decent lavish meals)
50x fish
21x plump helmet spawn
20x pig tail seeds
20x rock nut
10x Cave Wheet
10x Sweet Pods
35x Cassiterite
36x Copper Nugget
10x Bituminous Coal
12x Leather
1x Coke/Charcoal
1x Noneconomic stone

Animals:
1F Dog
1M Dog
1M Cat
1F Cat
1M Peafowl
3F Peafowl
1M Turkey
3F Turkey

Most of that is self-explanatory, but you'll notice a few odd things about my item spread.  I'll tackle those:
1) 1 unit of coke
That's kind of an optional thing.  I mostly use it so I don't have to take the extra steps to build a wood burner, assign the labor, and make charcoal in order to turn all that coal into coke (more necessary if I happen to embark where there aren't any trees).

2) No plump helmets
Raw plump helmets are more expensive than bringing extra meat/fish and extra seeds to cover the difference.

3) Anvil
I start my metal industry pretty much right away.  Hard to do that without an anvil.

4) Lots of birds and two types
Eggs are awesome filler for lavish meals.  Having 2 kinds of eggs really helps with this, as do having 6 layers.  Also, I like having the peafowl around because they grow to full-size in half the time that turkeys do, which gets the meat industry jump-started.

5) So much ore!  And why that extra piece of copper?
Yup, it all becomes bronze as soon as I can smelt it.  That extra piece of copper becomes 4 more picks as soon as my metal industry starts cranking over.

6) What's with the leather?
Mostly I have that so I can make bags.  Leather is cheaper to bring than cloth, so that's why I chose it.

7) Lots of food and booze
My first two priorities when embarking are always physical infrastructure (craft areas, dining rooms, bedrooms, above ground walls and defenses) and metal smithing.  This is compounded by me almost always embarking with an aquifer that needs breaching. By bringing so much food, I can afford to ignore farming for awhile in favor of assigning extra labor to handling these priority jobs.  I find I can safely ignore food collection until the second migrant wave if I really have to.

Variations:
There are 2 main variations that I'll use when working in areas with no trees:

If I'm doing a spot with no trees, I'll decrease the cassiterite and copper by 3 each and bring 12 pieces of wood, mostly so I can make beds before the first caravan.

If I'm doing a spot with no trees AND an aquifer, I'll decrease cassiterite and copper by 4 each and bring 12 wood and 4 stone.  This provides some inexpensive stone to make mechanisms for the aquifer pierce.  Of note, walling the aquifer in a no-tree embark will require using some metal or coke bars.  These can be reclaimed later after there is stone access.

Just before the first unpause:
There is some house-keeping I do with every embark before I get started. 
1) I use Fixster to make sure all my domestic animals are fertile.
2) Set some jobs for all the peasants (2 miners, an architect, a mason, and a carpenter to start, typically, as well as adding furnace operator and blacksmithing to the two smiths)
2) I set the wagon to disassemble (it becomes a craft shop and 2 training axes IF there are trees.  Otherwise, I don't bother)
3) I designate the framework of the first level to be dug
4) Set up to build a smelter with that random piece of stone.

From there, it's basic fort building.  Again, main objectives for the 7 is to pierce the aquifer (if present), get first crafting rooms dug, start on the above-ground fortifications, get a spot for the egg farming set up, and work on the first dining room, office, and 20 bedrooms.  Most of those peasants will be bouncing between masonry, mining, and carpentry jobs during the whole first season as stuff gets built.  Of note: it's very handy to rush-build the forge with a piece of coal so you can get those picks built.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 12:53:51 am by Tacomagic »
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soulmata

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Re: [DF2014] Embark Profiles
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2014, 12:36:20 am »

I like your loadout, Tacomagic. It seems very similar to mine, both in structure and concept.

That's why I bring 160 alcohol, so that I can ignore farming for as long as possible (And I will just butcher my pack animals for meat, that usually seems to give me about 40 meat plus some tallow for soap. The birds will produce eggs quickly enough that I don't think I've ever once come close to running out of food).

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Iamblichos

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Re: [DF2014] Embark Profiles
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2014, 03:20:07 pm »

I have fallen in love with embarking with only a pick and anvil... no food, booze, or non-wagon-pulling animals.  It makes you absolutely forced to pay attention to what you are doing.  If I want easy mode, I go into an area with plenty of trees; otherwise, it's rocky wastes or desert or glacier.

Step 1: Break down Mr. Wagon (farewell, faithful friend)
Step 2: Slaughter your wagon-pulling meatsack... uh... animals, and
Step 3: Sprint like hell for a cavern with some water in it where food can be harvested.

All manner of FUN! can ensue, especially troll-related fun, since they just rudely burst through doors and are terribly lonely in those big empty caverns.
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I'm new to succession forts in general, yes, but do all forts designed by multiple overseers inevitably degenerate into a body-filled labyrinth of chaos and despair like this? Or is this just a Battlefailed thing?

There isn't much middle ground between killed-by-dragon and never-seen-by-dragon.

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Re: [DF2014] Embark Profiles
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2014, 11:26:59 am »

Anyone have a good embark profile for 40.15+ (with the new embark point total!) that is somewhat focused embarking in a dangerous area. Assumption is its not a "hardcore" 1-pick only or some such embark.

I'm not so much interested in the items / animals, just the dwarf skills.

Some topics I'm unsure about:

1. How important is embarking with Discipline on none, some, or all of the 7?
2. Military skill focus on the hard vs soft skills: Axe, Hammer, Armor etc. vs Biter, Fighter, Teacher, Observer
3. Should the 7 be skilled in the "basic" tasks that are needed right away (mining, mason, craft, farming, etc), or in "higher" arts such as Metalcraft, etc?
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GavJ

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Re: [DF2014] Embark Profiles
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2014, 12:45:11 pm »

Quote
1) 1 unit of coke
That's kind of an optional thing.  I mostly use it so I don't have to take the extra steps to build a wood burner, assign the labor, and make charcoal in order to turn all that coal into coke (more necessary if I happen to embark where there aren't any trees).
May be convenient, but never necessary. You can deconstruct your wagon for 3 logs in any biome.
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Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

KingKaol

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Re: [DF2014] Embark Profiles
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2015, 01:12:04 pm »

I'm trying out a new setup on dwarf skills.

For moodable skills I give each dwarf 5 points in one of:

- weaponsmith
- armorsmith
- blacksmith
- leatherworker
- clothier

Usually two weaponsmiths, two armorsmiths, and one dwarf for each of the remaining blacksmith, leatherworker, and clothier. Dwarves will share the other moodable skills like mining and masonry until a migration wave arrives so that they retain their highest skills.

Then the remaining 5 points for non-moodable skills:

- 1 swimming, 1 discipline, 2 appraiser, 1 judge of intent
- 1 swimming, 1 discipline, 2 diagnostician, 1 surgeon
- 1 swimming, 1 discipline, 1 wound dresser, 1 suturer, 1 bone doctor
- 1 swimming, 1 discipline, 2 axeman, 1 armor use
- 1 swimming, 1 discipline, 2 crossbowman, 1 armor use
- 1 swimming, 1 discipline, 3 animal trainer
- 1 swimming, 1 discipline, 3 grower

Usually I'll try to give the military positions to male dwarves with good physical characteristics, and the medical skills to dwarves with good disease resistance.
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