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[Shadow Of Fate]

You talk about having steel-quality alloys on every map, but aluminum, much like in real life, is incredibly rare, most certainly rarer than the combination of flux, iron, and trees.

"Nobody's ever going to use it" is not exactly a strong counterargument to "It's redundant and cluttery" ...

In fact, it makes the clutter even more annoying, because it's in my way making the scroll menu longer every game just as much as if aluminum were plentiful, but now I don't even hardly get to use it in exchange for my troubles. It's also going to have the tendency to make players think it's some awesome rare amazing alloy, and disappoint them hugely when they finally get it and it's some crappy bronze + 1.

No. It isn't "nobody's going to use it." Why does it have to be one extreme or the other? The point was one of the materials is rare so it won't be anywhere near as common as steel.

For example "Let's have Klingon spaceships in the game that shoot lasers and blow up your whole base in 20 frames! But they only show up in 0.001% of games! That means it's such a minor feature that any your complaints about its problems are invalid!" Doesn't really work like that. Every change should be more fun than not-that-change, no matter how minor.

Come on. Now you are just being silly for the sake of it. That's hardly comparable to smelting a little aluminum with some copper to get an alloy in a game where you can already make things out of pure aluminum, and you know that. Like I said, Dwarf Fortress is based on realism, but only to a point. But it isn't wildly unrealistic, either. This is fairly consistent with what the game already is. Klingon space ships are so far outside the sphere it's silly.

The benefit is allowing the player more options.

Yes, but again, why does this make the game more fun? It certainly makes it EASIER. But why more fun? They are not the same thing.

No. You must have missed the part where I said it's a stronger bronze alloy with higher value. That doesn't exist in the game. And personally, I think having more choices for alloys to add different flavor would make it more fun.

I don't think a night creature that doesn't need to breath, is considered non living, and can teleport like a bogeyman is realistic. I don't think giant flying versions of smaller creatures are realistic, due to things like the weight those giant proportions would create.

Unlike an additional alloy that would almost never be used and would be pretty much exactly like alloys we already have, these examples add significant amounts of fun to the game. They add new challenges, force you to make more intricate, dwarfy traps, to consider your ceilings, to play the game more intelligently, etc. I.e. they pay something for their unrealism.

In your opinion you think they are fun. In your opinion you think more alloys isn't fun. You are getting all relative again. So why is your definition of fun more absolute than anyone else's? Aluminum bronze would give you another option, it would give you an alloy with a different combination of properties than anything else. In my view, it does "pay for it's unrealism." And it is more realistic for this game than anything I mentioned considering you can already make things out of pure aluminum in game and the alloy exists in real life. And again, how do I quantify your definition of unrealism? Because the level of "unrealism" for aluminum bronze seems lower than giant flying parrots that are technically too heavy to fly for their structure but do, or bogeyman, etc.

Can you not see the impracticality of your "pay for unrealism" idea? Especially considering the fact we already covered that the actual game of Dwarf Fortress doesn't even work that way.

[Chevaleresse]

Also, dwarves are unrealistic and there is no practical benefit to using them over humans. Especially since I'm fairly certain humans will "cave adapt."

[GavJ]

personally, I think having more choices for alloys to add different flavor would make it more fun.

Right, boils down to this: It's not really very practically significant, but you think it's better because of flavor. Okay, that's fair enough.
I'm suggesting it's worse for the same reason, though: unrealism hurts flavor in my opinion.

*Shrug* you like strawberry I like chocolate, not much more to discuss.

I for one enjoy the idea. I'd expect dwarves to have a variety of alloys to work with. Maybe menus should change to only show metal options that you have available to you, to dodge clutter?

This is a great idea. Making the menu change would certainly help with the clutter and with any false hope of a super alloy seen on the list. Also it would improve all the other cluttery alloys at the same time AND lessen the issue of realism since you wouldn't even see it unless you mine aluminum (which people concerned with realism probably wouldn't do as often anyway), so if aluminum bronze encourages that to happen, it'd be well worth it to me!  It's a great compromise/improvement combo.

[Shadow Of Fate]

personally, I think having more choices for alloys to add different flavor would make it more fun.

Right, boils down to this: It's not really very practically significant, but you think it's better because of flavor. Okay, that's fair enough.
I'm suggesting it's worse for the same reason, though: unrealism hurts flavor in my opinion.

*Shrug* you like strawberry I like chocolate, not much more to discuss.

Well actually, I like chocolate...

On a serious note, it seems like you finally get what I was saying. It's level of fun is relative to individual opinion.

But there is one other thing I think you missed when it comes to my personal opinion. While you may see the practically of this as limited for a standalone upgrade, I see it as more.
Personally, I don't see this as a stand alone addition. I think it should be a small part of an upgrade to the whole metalworking system. I would like more metals, certain existing metals (like lead) to be updated, and more alloys with some of the existing metals. I see this as a small step towards that, or a small part of that. Whichever comes first. The truth is I was planning a thread on it before I saw this.

I for one enjoy the idea. I'd expect dwarves to have a variety of alloys to work with. Maybe menus should change to only show metal options that you have available to you, to dodge clutter?

This is a great idea. Making the menu change would certainly help with the clutter and with any false hope of a super alloy seen on the list. Also it would improve all the other cluttery alloys at the same time AND lessen the issue of realism since you wouldn't even see it unless you mine aluminum (which people concerned with realism probably wouldn't do as often anyway), so if aluminum bronze encourages that to happen, it'd be well worth it to me!  It's a great compromise/improvement combo.

I too would be all for this. And as I said before, I am still generally for more alloys.

[DG]

So you're not saying you dislike the suggestion, you want aluminum gone entirely?

I always mod out aluminum and platinum from my games for reasons that Gav mentions. I haven't looked into black bronze, maybe I'll get rid of that, too. I have no real problem with your alloys going in as long as it remains easy to remove (obviously I'd prefer they weren't in but it's no big deal to me).

If you look at the raws you'll see from Toady's comments that there was guesswork involved when he did it so I wouldn't be surprised if he eventually goes back and revises what's in and out.

[Tomsod]

Well, this alloy looks like a thing that has no historical precedent, but is theoretically doable. So it could make it in a semi-random world gen discoveries system along with some other alloys, if we are ever going to have something like that. It's entirely possible that some dwarven blacksmith will fuse copper with some aluminum during a strange mood, but it may not happen either.

[StagnantSoul]

Dwarf Fortress is both realistic, and heavily unrealistic. When was the last time you saw a hunter get gored by a unicorn, and his wife start smashing skulls, causing an entire city to go out of control and kill everyone? When was the last time you saw a giant beast with one eye, amethyst spikes, eight legs, and three tails spewing fire all over the place? Dwarf Fortress is realistic and heavily unrealistic, realism should not be a deciding factor in arguments. Dwarves are not humans. Humans didn't have aluminum bronze because they didn't have access to floating chunks of aluminum the size of their heads in the ground, which the dwarves do. Therefore, it is not hard to imagine the dwarves experimenting with it, and finding uses for it, just like they do for nearly all metals.

[GavJ]

and his wife start smashing skulls, causing an entire city to go out of control and kill everyone?

Note that there is another thread in the suggestions forum being posted in as of today about how almost everybody wants this to change.

When was the last time you saw a giant beast with one eye, amethyst spikes, eight legs, and three tails spewing fire all over the place?

Presumably I might have seen one, if I lived in the age of myth. Instead, we simply live in some later age in our world. Notice that DF cleverly has this explanation explicitly built in to help maintain immersion (although the beasts also provide significant challenge and fun gameplay content)

Humans didn't have aluminum bronze because they didn't have access to floating chunks of aluminum the size of their heads in the ground, which the dwarves do.

Again the mere existence of something currently in game is itself not a reason to double down on it in gameplay, since you could always just remove it if that works better.

If Toady had included NATO rifle rounds in the game with no use, would you be clamoring for AK-47s to shoot them with? Or would you be suggesting that the anachronistic bullets just be removed instead? This is obviously a more extreme example (on purpose, to more clearly stimulate intuition), but the logic is exactly the same.

[StagnantSoul]

If Toady had included NATO rifle rounds in the game with no use, would you be clamoring for AK-47s to shoot them with? Or would you be suggesting that the anachronistic bullets just be removed instead? This is obviously a more extreme example (on purpose, to more clearly stimulate intuition), but the logic is exactly the same.

No, it's not. You're suggesting it's ridiculous to use real world alloys, just because aluminum is a bit hard to obtain, and it's different than what humans in the real world did, because of limited access to aluminum. Dwarves in Dwarf Fortress have access to many times more aluminum than the supposed era humans had, and are quite different than humans. The only reason humans of the same era that Dwarf Fortress is set in didn't use aluminum bronze is because of limited access and no way to refine it in large quantities, which the dwarves have, if aluminum was made more common. There's no reason not to use this, and close to none of your arguments have been accurate or Dwarf Fortress related, you're thinking of it like humans in the 1200's having access to tons of aluminum, not dwarves in Dwarf Fortress.

[red_kangaroo]

I must say I like the idea of making aluminum alloys, too.

Do not talk about "realistic" and such in a fantasy world, please. The right word here is "fantastic" - as long as it does not hurt the flavor (as e.g. steampunk stuff would), it's quite applicable.

[Shadow Of Fate]

If Toady had included NATO rifle rounds in the game with no use, would you be clamoring for AK-47s to shoot them with? Or would you be suggesting that the anachronistic bullets just be removed instead? This is obviously a more extreme example (on purpose, to more clearly stimulate intuition), but the logic is exactly the same.

I feel like I already addressed a point almost exactly like this with your Klingon spaceships. See again below:

For example "Let's have Klingon spaceships in the game that shoot lasers and blow up your whole base in 20 frames! But they only show up in 0.001% of games! That means it's such a minor feature that any your complaints about its problems are invalid!" Doesn't really work like that. Every change should be more fun than not-that-change, no matter how minor.

Come on. Now you are just being silly for the sake of it. That's hardly comparable to smelting a little aluminum with some copper to get an alloy in a game where you can already make things out of pure aluminum, and you know that. Like I said, Dwarf Fortress is based on realism, but only to a point. But it isn't wildly unrealistic, either. This is fairly consistent with what the game already is. Klingon space ships are so far outside the sphere it's silly.

As was said before, aluminum bronze makes sense for the game in which you already have access to pure aluminum and can already make other bronze alloys. Klingon space ships, NATO rifles, and whatever else you want to use as an example which has no relation to the game whatsoever are poor excuses for an argument. Forget about apples to oranges. You aren't even on the same planet with these. And in this case, you even admit to using more extreme examples on purpose. But it's not applicable. It just makes you sound silly.

[GavJ]

Dwarves in Dwarf Fortress have access to many times more aluminum

Right. This is extremely unrealistic, almost as much so for the 14th century as AK-47s lying around randomly.

Aluminum takes huge amounts of electricity to purify, and the entire world's supply in the 1300s would have been much less than a single DF bar.

The suggestion in the OP is perfectly fine, given the existence of aluminum, I agree. But aluminum shouldn't exist in game, so the suggestion simply wouldn't apply anymore if/when aluminum is removed, which it should be.

That's all I'm saying.  Not trying to bash the OP at any point here. Just saying it's based on something that should be removed. Just like a suggestion to manufacture NATO rounds would have been perfectly reasonable if AK-47s were in game, and my response to that thread would similarly have been "Okay, but the rifles should simply be removed instead, making the suggestion moot"

[StagnantSoul]

There's a giant planet made almost entirely of liquid diamond. So should diamonds be removed from Earth because they're rather uncommon? Why should a world reportedly made from half insane deities be 100% like Earth? This is a fantasy game, not real life. Stop thinking of it like real life.

[Shadow Of Fate]

Dwarves in Dwarf Fortress have access to many times more aluminum

Right. This is extremely unrealistic, almost as much so for the 14th century as AK-47s lying around randomly.

Aluminum takes huge amounts of electricity to purify, and the entire world's supply in the 1300s would have been much less than a single DF bar.

The suggestion in the OP is perfectly fine, given the existence of aluminum, I agree. But aluminum shouldn't exist in game, so the suggestion simply wouldn't apply anymore if/when aluminum is removed, which it should be.

That's all I'm saying.  Not trying to bash the OP at any point here. Just saying it's based on something that should be removed. Just like a suggestion to manufacture NATO rounds would have been perfectly reasonable if AK-47s were in game, and my response to that thread would similarly have been "Okay, but the rifles should simply be removed instead, making the suggestion moot"

Why are you still going on about your Ak-47's, NATO rounds, and other nonsense as if it's even remotely comparable to Dwarf Fortress? This point has been addressed multiple times by multiple people. For this game, those examples are not even remotely comparable to the suggestion of an aluminum bronze alloy. It's NOT the same thing! It's just not. And you know that. You are just distorting the discussion with silly examples and acting like it is the same when it's not.

The entire point you are making with these silly examples to counter this suggestion is based around what you deem is a lack of proper context for aluminum within the realm of dwarf fortress. And to do this, you are going to continually use a counter argument where your examples don't have any sense of context to dwarf fortress? The only thing you are proving here with this kind of point is that you don't seem to have any idea of what context actually applies to the game or not.

[GavJ]

The entire point you are making with these silly examples to counter this suggestion is based around what you deem is a lack of proper context for aluminum within the realm of dwarf fortress. And to do this, you are going to continually use a counter argument where your examples don't have any sense of context to dwarf fortress?

Yes, this is intentionally done to highlight the one most important dimension of the analogy.

I'm confident that if Toady reads it, he will understand what I mean. Therefore, I don't see any point in re-hashing my point any further. It's not an important enough detail of the game to spend hours debating.