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[Chevaleresse]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_bronze


Aluminum is super-rare in game and will likely remain so unless Toady decides that someone will gain the ability to extract it from bauxite, but it'd be neat to add a use other than high-value trade goods that are hauled quickly. According to Wikipedia, aluminum bronze is stronger than other bronzes, and it would logically be lighter. Due to its usage in industry, data shouldn't be too difficult to find on it.


EDIT: According to this, most modern aluminum bronzes are composed of around 10% aluminum, so aluminum would probably end up being one of four bars/ores used in a reaction. The alloys are with nickel, iron, and to a lesser extent copper. That document also has some material properties listed that could likely be converted to DF standards. I could see a formula of 1 Al:3 Cu getting used if it was implemented, or possibly 1 Al:1 Ni:2 Cu, if the established conventions were maintained. (A more accurate formula that stays close to DF proportions would be 1 Al:1 Ni:6 Cu, but w/e.)


If we wanted particularly accurate properties, someone could order a copy of Pub 082 - Aluminium Bronze Alloys Technical Data from that copper alliance site (it should be free).

EDIT2: Found another source on the same site with more accurate info.
http://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/innovations/2002/08/aluminum_bronze.pdf

[nogoodnames]

As far as I can tell, aluminium bronze wasn't invented until the 1800s, well beyond DF's intended technology level.

[Chevaleresse]

As far as I can tell, aluminium bronze wasn't invented until the 1800s, well beyond DF's intended technology level.

Well, good point, I guess, though I can't find a source repeating that info. However, it's not like the technology is actually beyond DF; the development of the material would have waited due to the scarcity of aluminum, not due to a lack of technology. You don't need anything beyond what is needed to make regular bronze for aluminum bronze; in fact, aluminum might be easier to smelt due to its low melting point.

[nogoodnames]

Well aluminum itself wasn't refined until the 19th century, and not in large amounts until better extraction techniques were invented in the 1880's. I don't think "native aluminum" as portrayed in DF exists in real life, at least not in any appreciable amount. You could say it's an acceptable break from reality, but I think adding aluminum alloys would be taking it a bit too far.

Although... This does give me an idea for player-defined alloy system where the player could create procedural (or real) alloys by defining proportions of metal to mix. Might be an interesting mechanic which could add some crude experimentation and progress to the game. Anyone feel free to develop that idea if you want.

[Chevaleresse]

Actually, to quote wikipedia:

"Native aluminium metal can only be found as a minor phase in low oxygen fugacity environments, such as the interiors of certain volcanoes.[17] Native aluminium has been reported in cold seeps in the northeastern continental slope of the South China Sea and Chen et al. (2011)[18] have proposed a theory of its origin as resulting by reduction from tetrahydroxoaluminate Al(OH)4– to metallic aluminium by bacteria.[18]"

"Bars of aluminium were exhibited at the Exposition Universelle of 1855.[54] Napoleon III of France is reputed to have given a banquet where the most honoured guests were given aluminium utensils, while the others made do with gold.[55][56]"

"Aluminium was selected as the material to use for the 100 ounces (2.8 kg) capstone of the Washington Monument in 1884, a time when one ounce (30 grams) cost the daily wage of a common worker on the project.[57] The capstone, which was set in place on 6 December 1884, in an elaborate dedication ceremony, was the largest single piece of aluminium cast at the time, when aluminium was as expensive as silver.[57]

So it was certainly around.

and dammit the whole 19th century=1800s thing got me again.

Dwarves can refine aluminum, though, (or at least find iseable deposits) so it's only reasonable that they can alloy it.

[Shadow Of Fate]

I would be all for this. There are so many metals in the ground that have almost no use, or very limited use. I think we could use more alloys, more metals, and a more comprehensive system for the metals that do exist in a limited state. Right now, I believe Aluminum in this game is almost like a Platinum clone. This makes no sense. Aluminum should be more common than Platinum, less valuable than it, and be more workable.

I know that certain alloys, such as aluminum bronze, weren't created until times considered more modern than the medieval/feudal tech that seems to consist in Dwarf Fortress. And I know aluminum bronze is one of those. But at the same time, there is some room for fiction here. I see no reason why a bunch of dwarfs experimenting with the metals they happen to find and mine out of the ground couldn't discover new alloys such as this one. And as was mentioned before, can't Dwarves already refine Aluminum?

[Chevaleresse]

Actually, useable aluminum is super rare in an era without the proper process (can't remember the name off the top of my head.) I was just thinking that metals that are both super rare and aren't special in any way beyond maybe a neat value multiplier are boring, especially if there's more than one. Platinum basically fulfills this role as it isn't a weapons-grade metal outside of artifacts, and aluminum is rarer.

[GavJ]

Aluminum should be more common than Platinum, less valuable than it, and be more workable.

Aluminum has relatively poor working abilities for dwarven technology.

It's easy to weld in modern day with arc welders, but it's very difficult to heat in a forge in a way to allow easy welding, for instance, since it conducts heat too well and the whole thing heats up (and also vents heat) without the joint getting especially hot. There's a reason they make heatsinks out of aluminum!

It's impossible to heat treat for hardness properties like steel in a forge.

It's also easy to cut with special modern tool alloys and water jetted machines, etc. but using simple conventional cutting tools, they get gummed up with aluminum really quickly. With a simple steel drill bit, it's actually very difficult to drill a simple hole in aluminum for instance, without is sloshing around and getting filled up with aluminum. It almost acts like clay.

It's easy to extrude and press with modern super heavy dies and rollers, but dwarves didn't really have that type of stuff.

[Shadow Of Fate]

Aluminum should be more common than Platinum, less valuable than it, and be more workable.

Aluminum has relatively poor working abilities for dwarven technology.

It's easy to weld in modern day with arc welders, but it's very difficult to heat in a forge in a way to allow easy welding, for instance, since it conducts heat too well and the whole thing heats up (and also vents heat) without the joint getting especially hot. There's a reason they make heatsinks out of aluminum!

It's impossible to heat treat for hardness properties like steel in a forge.

It's also easy to cut with special modern tool alloys and water jetted machines, etc. but using simple conventional cutting tools, they get gummed up with aluminum really quickly. With a simple steel drill bit, it's actually very difficult to drill a simple hole in aluminum for instance, without is sloshing around and getting filled up with aluminum. It almost acts like clay.

It's easy to extrude and press with modern super heavy dies and rollers, but dwarves didn't really have that type of stuff.

This may be. However, it is still more common and reactive than Platinum, and basically fills the same niche. Right now, it's purpose is both redundant and far more limited than it needs to be. Perhaps a better version of a forge could be used to make higher difficulty alloys like this? The alloy for aluminum bronze is not 100% aluminum. Isn't it closer to 10%? So it isn't like you would be working with pure aluminum. Theoretically, all you would have to do is melt it in a super heated forge with the other metals and you would get a form of aluminum bronze to work with.

Besides, we have adamantine. Couldn't a material like adamantine, and maybe adamantine tools be used to process something like aluminum? Adamantine is an extreme example, but it does show that the dwarves do have access to certain materials which might be better at handling aluminum than we give them credit for.

[Chevaleresse]

Aluminum bronze does cap out at about 12% aluminum. It's nearly always above 90% copper from what I have read, and an alloy is essentially made by melting two metals together. Aluminum isn't exactly difficult to melt once you have it by itself, which it is perfectly possible to do in-game.

[Shadow Of Fate]

I must admit, I do have a bit of a stake in this one as I was planning on a larger scale thread suggesting an overhaul of some of the metals and alloys in this game. I think it could use some work.

Aluminum bronze does cap out at about 12% aluminum. It's nearly always above 90% copper from what I have read, and an alloy is essentially made by melting two metals together. Aluminum isn't exactly difficult to melt once you have it by itself, which it is perfectly possible to do in-game.

So that is pretty much as I thought. If implemented, that could make certain other aluminum alloys potentially more doable as well, so long as the aluminum content in them was not too high.

[Pwned dwarf]

As far as I can tell, aluminium bronze wasn't invented until the 1800s, well beyond DF's intended technology level.

Dwarves would probably be the only ones allowed to make it, knowing dwarves are pros when it comes to metalworking and it was invented way past medieval theme

[Romegypt]

I was going to say that steel wasn't made till around the 1300s, but then I looked it up. Nooooooo, 4000 BC! That's insane! I never thought it would be THAT early!

[Pwned dwarf]

a reason why aluminum bronze is made so far past df time was that inventors didn't have access to aluminum, but dwarf inventors DO.

[Chevaleresse]

I'll just clarify my point that while aluminum bronze was not developed until the nineteenth century, the basic technology required to create it is certainly within DF. It's not like a gold-titanium alloy that would require technology not developed until the twentieth century (extraction of reasonably pure titanium); it's just a combination that wasn't really invented due to economic reasons. I'll also point out we have Corinthian bronze, which was, well, Corinthian and vanished from existence before 23 AD.