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Author Topic: Melee Combat  (Read 31376 times)

Neonivek

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #105 on: September 09, 2014, 01:27:53 pm »

Because modern soldiers have everything they need to shoot, kill, and eat on them at all times.

A Knight isn't going to charge into battle with a loaf of bread tied to his belt.
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Neonivek

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #106 on: September 09, 2014, 01:32:43 pm »

Because modern soldiers have everything they need to shoot, kill, and eat on them at all times.

A Knight isn't going to charge into battle with a loaf of bread tied to his belt.
Well, yeah. When charging into battle a knight will leave non-essential stuff behind. You don't see a modern day soldier lugging around a TV in case they want to watch House.

Right so all the extra stuff like food, spare weapons, spare shields, and junk goes with their entourage.
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MaximumZero

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #107 on: September 09, 2014, 01:36:12 pm »

Also, modern soldiers have base camps and supply lines. Not like the Army doesn't have entourages.
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DJ

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #108 on: September 09, 2014, 01:37:47 pm »

Having all the weight concentrated on the shoulders rather than distributed all over the body seems worse to me, fatigue-wise.

As for fatigue in plate, it's less about weight and more about the fact that steel is just about the least breathable clothing out there.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 01:39:22 pm by DJ »
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Arx

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #109 on: September 09, 2014, 01:40:40 pm »

Intuitively, things like walking would be far more tiring, though, because you have a couple of kilograms of steel strapped to your legs that you're lifting along with everything else. Lifting your arms is also more of a problem, more so doing something intense like combat, although it might well be worse being top-heavy with equipment.
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DJ

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #110 on: September 09, 2014, 01:44:53 pm »

IDK, I had some pretty bad shoulder-aches from backpacks that were too heavy.
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Kashyyk

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #111 on: September 09, 2014, 02:12:23 pm »

I'm gonna push in here, cite my position as a member of a Norman reenactment group, give you a spiel and then go away again :)

As a prelude, all my knowledge is based on Anglo-Norman England from 1066 to 1215. Plate was not a thing then, and the best armour a knight would have would be a maille hauberk which consisted of an integrated coif and sleeves that ended in mufflers and continued down to the top of the knee, normally including a riding split. They'd then wear either maille hose (think tights made of maille) or chausses, which were effectively maille shinpads. Underneath this they wore a gambeson which was two tunics stitched together and stuffed with any sort of padding, but ideally horse hair. They used horse hair because they discovered it had a similar strength to iron thread in the same way spiders silk and steel thread does. They'd also wear a helmet, be it a nasal with a ventail (a strip of maille backed with leather to cover the nose, mouth and throat) or a helm with a faceplate, sometimes with a ventail as well. All in all this could weigh up to about 5 stone, but as it's evenly distributed across the body it's not too bad.

As to how effective this was, here goes. Maille was excellent at stopping slashing attacks, as the force of the blow is spread out amongst a number of links which themsleves spread the force to their neighbours, causing the hit to do nothing more than perhaps bruise. It was not however that good against piercing attacks, as the full force was put through a few links, causing them to burst or split, compromising the maille and in the worst case, actually leaving bits of broken link inside the wound. This is what the gambeson is for, it acts as a kind of spall liner, catching any shards, and also reducing the force of the blow some more. There are stories of crusader knights who advanced through arrow fire, getting peppered with arrows, but the combined thickness of their maille and gambeson actually prevented the arrows from reaching the man underneath. Finally, maille is almost useless against impact. It reduces the effect slightly, but this is wear the gambeson shines. Due to it's padding it spreads the force and acts as a shock absorber.

With regards to all the kit a knight would bring with him on campaign, he would have had a couple of spare shields and a fairly elaborate tent with bed and other comforts. However at the same time, knights were perfectly willing to go out on scouting missions or skirmishes and sleep rough with the common soldiers. Knights were also trained from the age of ten to be knights, and thus were perfectly capable of spending a whole day in armour and then fighting in it.
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BlitzDungeoneer

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #112 on: September 09, 2014, 02:24:49 pm »

KATANAS ARE THE BEST, FOOL! ARGAVAUSDFU!!!1111!!!!

Joking aside, this was a very interesting thread to read. Allow me to ask a question, then.

Just how good are cavalry sabers, really? I like them and all, but are they actually any good?
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Vattic

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #113 on: September 09, 2014, 02:29:00 pm »

I read that as children future knights would have weights sewn into their clothes to get them used to carrying extra. Can't find the source at the moment and I haven't time to dig before work.
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Sergarr

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #114 on: September 09, 2014, 02:42:02 pm »

KATANAS ARE THE BEST, FOOL! ARGAVAUSDFU!!!1111!!!!

Joking aside, this was a very interesting thread to read. Allow me to ask a question, then.

Just how good are cavalry sabers, really? I like them and all, but are they actually any good?
Well, judging by the fact that cavalry was using them effectively at least up to the Crimean War... well they wouldn't use them if they weren't effective, duh?
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BlitzDungeoneer

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #115 on: September 09, 2014, 02:44:09 pm »

That is true. I meant in the context of this thread, plate armour and all. I notice I forgot to add that in.
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Sergarr

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #116 on: September 09, 2014, 02:49:01 pm »

Probably not all that good.

A cavalrymen of that period would usually wield several pistols as sidearms, so they didn't particularly need their saber to be armor-piercing.
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MaximumZero

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #117 on: September 09, 2014, 02:52:47 pm »

Cavalry sabres are very different from fencing sabres, in that they are actually different swords. Fencing sabres are the curved sword you know, but many cavalry sabres were actually straight, for lancing as you rode by.
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Parsely

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #118 on: September 09, 2014, 03:27:37 pm »

There is no best weapon. Weapons should be thought of in terms of purpose. On the sliding scale of effectiveness the utility of weapons while discounting the user's skill are inevitably going to overlap.

Just how good are cavalry sabers, really? I like them and all, but are they actually any good?
Cavalry sabres are by definition curved swords meant for slashing. So.. That's what they're good at. They're for swiping at unarmored individuals from horseback.

The curved shape allows for an effective and deadly drawing motion, much like the motion you see with a katana being drawn, something that's somewhere between awkward and impossible with a straight sword. It also allows for more indiscriminate motions when cutting, allowing for more damage to be done from more various angles than with a straight sword. Probably the most important thing is that the curved blade is by nature of it's use less likely to stick and bind with your target, which is really really really important in combat and especially when you're mounted where it's impossible to retrieve your weapon if you lose it.
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Baffler

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Re: Melee Combat
« Reply #119 on: September 09, 2014, 03:57:56 pm »

I'd have a crossbow, personally. If I had to have a melee weapon I think it'd be a hand and a half sword, because that is the only sword I have ever actually handled, and it seems to me that some familiarity with the weapon would be more valuable than its hypothetical effectiveness in the hands of a skilled user.

Edit: Or a heavy bearded axe with a handle about as long as my forearm. Simple, but effective and easy to pick up.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 04:44:52 pm by Baffler »
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