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[Elfeater]

On the topic of plate, it wouldn't be something that slows you to a snails pace, people wouldn't use it if it didn't work. A knight, who would have trained for many years, would be proficient in fighting in it, im not saying they could run a marathon, but they fought long battles in these suits. However, at the same time, someone untrained would be extremely hindered by it, and cut to pieces by someone who was unarmored, and unhindered.

[EnigmaticHat]

LB, are you really using Monty Python and the Holy Grail as an example?  That armor probably wasn't even real metal.  That whole film was shot incredibly cheaply.

As for knight versus samurai, I don't think the samurai stand a chance.  The Feudal era Japanese (excepting pirates) almost exclusively fought each other.  They were used to fighting without shields, with few cavalry, and no significant metal armor on either side.  Meanwhile the European knights were decked out in a ridiculous amount of high quality metal gear, and might expect to fight with people from any number of countries.  I'm sure if Japan were in proximity to someone who fought like Europeans the samurai would adapt, but if you just teleported some feudal era samurai and knights into an arena and had them fight it would be a massacre in the knight's favor.

As for the walking away bit, that doesn't work in combat where there's a formation of men all around you (and remember, knights fought on horseback, or supported by more lightly armored infantry).  I guess in a one on one duel a samurai might have a chance but that's not really fair, given that samurai dueled on foot while knights preferred the joust on horseback (which matches their preferred fighting style).

Finally, a katana is simply too large to fit in between the joints of most knight's armor.  The main exploitable weakness in a lot of full plate, the armpits, would be better exploited by a thrusting weapon, ideally a smaller one.

[Neonivek]

I already seen a realistic depiction of the typical Knight versus Samurai fight in an Anime... Where the Samurai just completely didn't stand a chance and had to use the environment to win. (It was the only time I ever seen a character say that they were superior and that the main character didn't stand a chance because Japan is behind the times where... The villain was actually right and the anime never challenged it and treated the villain as correct).

The issue with the Samurai winning is numerous such as their weapons not being suitable for harming opponents in Knight armor, to there not being that great a difference in fighting skill (unlike what most people depict them as... Knights were actually quite skilled), to Knights having Shields...

I guess in a one on one duel a samurai might have a chance but that's not really fair, given that samurai dueled on foot while knights preferred the joust on horseback (which matches their preferred fighting style).

Even dismounted don't underestimate the knight.

I can say with surety that there was nothing inferior about Japanese bladecraft.

Except you know... being unable to mass produce them... The quality of them being more of a mixed bag then the European swords... the method used to create them being completely outdated in the advent of the blast furnace... Several types of Japanese blades were considered completely impractical for combat but used anyway...

this superior weapon can cut clean through steel because it is folded over a thousand times, and is vastly superior to any other weapon on earth.

Yep because that is how science works... It doesn't matter that we already have methods far superior to the thousand fold technique... it doesn't matter that we had methods equal to the thousand fold technique for hundreds of years.

But let me give you a superior weapon: A Revolver.

Ohh melee weapon? a knife.

I am trying to think of a better melee weapon... but no it is probably a Knife or a Taser.

[Parsely]

Even dismounted don't underestimate the knight.

I'm with you there, Neon.

this superior weapon can cut clean through steel because it is folded over a thousand times, and is vastly superior to any other weapon on earth.

Obviously not true.

[LordBucket]

LB, are you really using Monty Python and the Holy Grail as an example?

Reading comprehension fail. No cookie for you.

that doesn't work in combat where there's a formation of men all around you

And why is that relevant? Wearing plate armor won't help you against fighter jets and ICBMs. But obviously that context isn't relevant to what was being said either.

katana is simply too large to fit in between the joints of most knight's armor.

Have you ever held a sword? Have you ever worn armor? Or are you just making this up?

this superior weapon can cut clean through steel because it is folded over a thousand times, and is vastly superior to any other weapon on earth.

Obviously not true.

Pretty sure TamerVirus was trolling.

[Neonivek]

Mind you Samurai Armor depending on what it is... might actually be the heavier and less wieldy. Given the tons upon tons of layers of cloth.

[MaximumZero]

LB, dudebro, I've done Kendo and Iaido. I was a member of the Midwest Kendo Federation. So, I appreciate you referencing them, but I don't have to watch any matches, as I was in them for more than a couple years. On top of that, starting at 6 months into my career I was pushed into tournaments because of my speed. I was faster than anyone in the tournament halls, to the point of being matched against people at my teachers' ranks. Granted, my technique was sloppy and I didn't score a single point against those guys/gals, but that's who I was put up against. Detroit's resident 8th Dan Sensei, Yoshiteru Tagawa, commented that I was the fastest student that he had ever seen. He called me "Hayabusa-kun," and made fun of me because my last name sounds very much like "turtle" in Japanese. (My teachers, Yutaro Matsuura (who is now a 6th dan!) and Dave Christman, came to me after the tournament and said, "Tagawa-sensei laughed at us because 'your turtle is a falcon.'") I know exactly how fast Kendoka and Iaidoka are, and I miss being that fast and faster. Curse you, injuries and age, for stealing my speed.

For reference, I've also trained extensively in backswords (Saber, Falchion, Scimitar, et al,) arming swords ("long swords", katzbalger, et al,) and greatswords (claymore, Kriegsmesser, großes Messer.) I've been fighting in various styles for 12 or so of the last 15 years, although I've fallen out of training due to injuries.

tl;dr: MZ really likes swords.

[LordBucket]

Mind you Samurai Armor depending on what it is... might actually be the heavier and less wieldy. Given the tons upon tons of layers of cloth.

Maybe. I don't know. I don't think I've ever seen a full suit of samurai armor in person. Certainly never worn one.

But what are we even comparing at this point? If you're trying to compare knight vs samurai, I'd point out that (according to a quick google search) an awful lot of european knights were six feet tall, whereas the average samurai was about 5'3". 9 inches and 50+ pounds would make a pretty big difference.

But is that even what we're talking about? I can't tell at this point.

[Parsely]

Mind you Samurai Armor depending on what it is... might actually be the heavier and less wieldy. Given the tons upon tons of layers of cloth.

Samurai armor has metal plates in it, though used sparingly rather than making the whole thing out of it. It's still mostly leather. It's still about as heavy as traditional European plate armor (30 to 50+ pounds). Not to mention the kind of armor I think you guys are talking about:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Was meant for use on horseback (peoples saying the Japanese didn't use much cavalry >_>) just like knight armor. I actually kind of get the impression from the info on the page that it was almost as restrictive than plate.

If you go into the wikipedia page for Japanese armor there's pictures of iron samurai armor dating back to the 5th century. :I I dunno what all this stuff is about a huge disparity between rich knight's armor and a rich Japanese samurai's armor. It sounds about equal to me, what with them both incorporating metal in the most important places.

Have you ever held a sword? Have you ever worn armor? Or are you just making this up?

Pretty sure TamerVirus was trolling.

I don't see what that has to do with anything.

I don't know anymore. :v

katana is simply too large to fit in between the joints of most knight's armor.

Google says most katanas are around a quarter of an inch in thickness and an inch in width. They're among some of the thinnest blades you'll ever see. I don't see why you couldn't stick a guy in the armpit with it.

[LordBucket]

I've done Kendo and Iaido.

I've also trained extensively in backswords arming swords and greatswords

Ok. So then, unlike I think most people in this thread, I'll assume that you do have some clue what you're talking about. And so I will guess that you'll probably agree with me when I say that this idea that katana are weak, flimsy things that would "shatter" in a couple blows is basically ridiculous.  And that while it's probably true that a cliche, stereotypical "full suit of plate armor" would provide a great deal of protection against a katana, it would also provide a great deal of protection against most other swords too regardless of whether they're Japanese. You're not going to cleave through a steel breastplate with a katana, but you're not going to cleave through it with a claymore either.

[Tiruin]

I've done Kendo and Iaido.

I've also trained extensively in backswords arming swords and greatswords

Ok. So then, unlike I think most people in this thread, I'll assume that you do have some clue what you're talking about.

You can be informative without being condescending.
Don't be condescending.
Be informative--correct that which is perceived wrong.

And don't be condescending. -_-

[Neonivek]

Mind you Samurai Armor depending on what it is... might actually be the heavier and less wieldy. Given the tons upon tons of layers of cloth.

Maybe. I don't know. I don't think I've ever seen a full suit of samurai armor in person. Certainly never worn one.

But what are we even comparing at this point? If you're trying to compare knight vs samurai, I'd point out that (according to a quick google search) an awful lot of european knights were six feet tall, whereas the average samurai was about 5'3". 9 inches and 50+ pounds would make a pretty big difference.

But is that even what we're talking about? I can't tell at this point.

Ohh I am just saying that don't underestimate the weight and "movement resistance" of Samurai armor. Lets not keep up the myth of complete flat out superiority of Samurai over the "puny Europeans who are just skilless barbarians who don't work very hard" (though no one said that here).

Melee combat wise though... One reason Rapiers got very popular during a specific time period was because the all importance of armor started to diminish.

I'd wonder if there are Knife styles... but I know there are, for different situations too! Quite a few are just for you versus an unarmed individual (including how to hold it to stop yourself from being disarmed).

Though whenever I see a knife style it seems that they always use a reverse grip. Is that always the situation?

Also one interesting emerging style will probably be Taser and Stun Baton style.

[MaximumZero]

I've done Kendo and Iaido.

I've also trained extensively in backswords arming swords and greatswords

Ok. So then, unlike I think most people in this thread, I'll assume that you do have some clue what you're talking about. And so I will guess that you'll probably agree with me when I say that this idea that katana are weak, flimsy things that would "shatter" in a couple blows is basically ridiculous.  And that while it's probably true that a cliche, stereotypical "full suit of plate armor" would provide a great deal of protection against a katana, it would also provide a great deal of protection against most other swords too regardless of whether they're Japanese. You're not going to cleave through a steel breastplate with a katana, but you're not going to cleave through it with a claymore either.

Depends on the steel of the blade, really. There are crappy swords made for poor soldiers who had to buy their own gear on both sides. Feudal lords did not give a single shit about individual soldiers. They were expendable, and that was acceptable so long as they didn't dwindle their tax base too much. Hell, peasants were treated with outright scorn and largely abused by these guys. Kind of like politics today, but with less campaigning and deception and more no-repercussion murder. Furthermore, craftsmen came in varying flavors of ability, and were churning out massive quantities of work by hand. The people who spent more money got the better steel and work.

Here's the deal with new ones, though. Most modern blades are mass produced by machines, and made of 440 grade stainless steel. They're made of the same steel you find in a knife block in the kitchen. They're pretty hard to really break, unless you're a power lifter going full bore at a tank or are obviously abusing the weapon. Katana by nature are somewhat harder to repair than arming swords. A) they're curved, so sharpening them is a giant pain in the ass, and B) there's less actual metal in the blade, so it's very easy to screw up the balance of the sword.

Either way, swords are not magic "cleave through anything" sticks. They're made for fighting distinct types of enemies in distinct types of armor. Against plate armor, you want a piercing sword, like the rapier or estoc. They were made specifically to punch holes in plate.

[DJ]

Knights could do cartwheels in their armour. A good suite of plate was custom made for it's wearer so it barely restricted movement, and the harnesses evenly distributed the weight across the body. The problem with it wasn't mobility, but overheating, because those things get toasty pretty quick when you're exerting yourself, and doubly so if it's a sunny day outside.

[TamerVirus]

this superior weapon can cut clean through steel because it is folded over a thousand times, and is vastly superior to any other weapon on earth.

Obviously not true.

U wot m8?

Oh, not familiar with the copy paste? 

But clearly, in the age of high explosives, none of this matters~