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[Sevrun]

Is it bad that the majority of my military are runnin around with old bone crossbows and seem to be quite skilled at obliterating goblin ambushes/assaults?

The longer I play the more I wonder why I have three AxeDwarves beating the heck outta my Fort Guard...  any recommendations for an expanded military?  I'm havin a hard time keepin everyone at work  :p

[Derakon]

You'll only run into problems with crossbows if you run out of ammo before you run out of targets (in which case the bone crossbows will serve as rather ineffective hammers), or if your targets include a Bronze Collossus, since they're more or less immune to bows.

Bows are rather stupidly overpowered right now, no matter how realistic they are.

[DonerKebab]

They are much easier to level up with melee weapons, but like you said, crossbows are the most effective weapon.  I would say the "perfect" training program is get them to legendary on screw pumps, then convert to wrestlers with plate and shield, the convert to hammerdwarves, then to crossbow.  Have lots of archery targets around and pump out as many bone bolts as possible.

You can then station small squads in fortified positions and watch them wreak havoc with impunity.

[RogerN]

Marksdwarves are extremely effective, to be sure.  But don't overlook the value of melee-dwarves.  I just had an axe champion single-handedly take out an entire squad of 12 goblin bowmen, and he was unscathed.  He must have dodged more than a hundred arrows.  Granted, it takes a LONG time to train such as dwarf...  It also helps if your dwarf is legendary in some other skill before you start training his combat skills.

[RogerN]

quote:Originally posted by DonerKebab:
<STRONG>I would say the "perfect" training program is get them to legendary on screw pumps, then convert to wrestlers with plate and shield, the convert to hammerdwarves, then to crossbow.</STRONG>

The end result is mostly the same, but I propose that you train Siege Operators instead of Pump Operators.  Why?  If done properly, your fortress will eventually be completely clear of loose stone AND you won't have wasted any.  I'll usually set up about 5 catapults with a large stone stockpile directly behind them.  The stockpile size should be about six tiles per catapult.  Next, be sure to dig a channel at the very end up your firing range.  Instead of smashing against the wall, all of your rocks will just fall down to the next Z-level.  When you run out of ammunition (i.e. your fortress is clear of loose stone) then just dig a tunnel to this channel, and all of the stone is back into circulation.  Nothing gets wasted!

The obvious advantage of this approach is that you end up with a nice, clean fortress - without having to manually dump all those rocks.  The disadvantage, of course, is that your dwarves spend tons of time hauling rocks to the catapult range.

Oh, and you probably want to turn off stone hauling for your siege operators.

[Sevrun]

Like ohhh... mining?  

The dwarf leadin my Axes is was a legendary miner, and after two years of almost constant training (thanks to a dozen marksdwarves keepin the front yard safe)  He was the first to reach AxeLord.  I'm quite tickled as you can imagine, having given him his own tomb, and a larger apartment than the 2x2 I typically hand out.
 Roger, I've seen the devastation you speak of...  Last fort I had a single axelord as well, ran around in exceptional Steel plate with a pair of axes to match.  Held the bridge into my keep all by himself against the first siege.  And then I made a MAJOR booboo...  Thus the place became that which is not named.

Haven't had a tussle with a collossus or dragon yet though.  I'll keep an eye out.

[DonerKebab]

quote:Originally posted by RogerN:
<STRONG>

The end result is mostly the same, but I propose that you train Siege Operators instead of Pump Operators.  Why?  If done properly, your fortress will eventually be completely clear of loose stone AND you won't have wasted any.  I'll usually set up about 5 catapults with a large stone stockpile directly behind them.  The stockpile size should be about six tiles per catapult.  Next, be sure to dig a channel at the very end up your firing range.  Instead of smashing against the wall, all of your rocks will just fall down to the next Z-level.  When you run out of ammunition (i.e. your fortress is clear of loose stone) then just dig a tunnel to this channel, and all of the stone is back into circulation.  Nothing gets wasted!

The obvious advantage of this approach is that you end up with a nice, clean fortress - without having to manually dump all those rocks.  The disadvantage, of course, is that your dwarves spend tons of time hauling rocks to the catapult range.

Oh, and you probably want to turn off stone hauling for your siege operators.</STRONG>

Eh I find the whole rock thing a non-issue.  I never clean my fort of rock, if the dwarves don't care, why should I?  

More importantly, you can put the screw pump inside, and there is no micro-management.  You just turn manual pumping on and forget about it.  I like engraving and digging too, but those require micro-management and seem to be slower.  Siege operating seems to be much slower in my experience.  The dwarf you are training is dependent on rock-haulers or must haul rock himself.

[Derakon]

The other nice thing about using catapults for training dwarves is that you don't continually get spammed with "Urist cancelled Operate Pump: exhausted". The dwarves'll work continually at the catapult, taking breaks only for eating, drinking, and sleeping.

[Neonivek]

"any recommendations for an expanded military?"

Just make sure you got a squad of 5-10 (or more) Champion Wrestlers on hand. They are useful for the larger monsters in the game. Make sure you combine them with other weapon types such as Hammers and Pikes. These are your Monster Stompers (Most stories I hear about Dwarves killing the Megabeasts without Crossbows involve Wrestlers)

They are especially useful against monsters that are immune to the mighty Crossbows...

[Sevrun]

I thought dwarves couldn't use pikes... :S

[Neonivek]

Well then forget the Pikes  

[Khosan]

I usually start my military off on crossbows.  By the time I need a military (or at least want to have one), my metalsmithing operations are usually unprepared, so I can't make armor yet.  By the time my first couple of little doofuses hit Champion from Marksdwarf, I've usually had my other Dwarves put something serviceable together.

As it is now, my two champions in my current fortress were Legendary Marksdwarves, then Legendary Armor Users/Shield Users/Wrestlers, followed by Legendary Macedwarves, now Legendary Hammerdwarves.  I'm hesitant to put them on slashing/piercing weapons, since I don't want to tempt fate and have them dismember each other by accident.

[ May 09, 2008: Message edited by: Khosan ]

[Dwarfaholic]

I wait until my wrestlers become champions thanks to wrestling. Then they can have weapons.

[Temetrix - Nilk]

quote:Originally posted by Derakon:
<STRONG>Bows are rather stupidly overpowered right now, no matter how realistic they are.</STRONG>

But nobody (hopefully) wants DF with some fantasy game -hit point system with each critter having healtbar. Like: no matter when the bold goes through your lungs it only does 54 dmg. and you having 234 hp. Or something like that. (I know, in some way there are health and damage values in the game but they are well hidden. Since you cannot see the actual hp amount of your dwarves)

DF is simulator... as much as you can simulate the communal living of imaginary creatures in imaginary world. This means realism.

Thoug.. I would certainly want system in which bows of lower quality and made from weaker materials would have lesser damage. Like low quality bone crossbow shouldn't even penetrate chain armor, but masterpiece steel one would go through any plate when used to shoot decend ammunition.

[Areyar]

For greater realism, make max range dependent on xbow quality and
limit damage to bolt quality.

idea?
-chance of piercing dependent on 0.5*maxrange/distance]% or something, else slashing damage.

...
-range-        crossbow quality
-firing speed- dwarf skill+strength/dex
-to hit-       dwarf skill/health - target speed
-damagetype-   piercing/slashing(superficial) range to target distance
-damage-       bolt type  
-reduce dam-   armour target
(I guess that slashing is less efficient at piercing armour than piercing?)

maybe bolttype might also influence effective range...
bone bolts flying further, but having less chance to pierce, metal bolts having shorter range but being deadlier.

ehrm..sorry more a suggestion-thread reply.  :p

[ May 10, 2008: Message edited by: Areyar ]