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Author Topic: Shield dwarves  (Read 2406 times)

martinuzz

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Shield dwarves
« on: September 03, 2014, 07:54:15 am »

So my next special squad will be shield dwarves, dual wielding shields. I think those might work pretty well as, well, zerg rush front troopers, especially against archers.
While waiting for a second subject to grow up to form a sparring team, I've already set one dwarf wielding two nethercap shields (too bad they don't do cold damage) to do individual training sessions in a barracks.

What I've noticed, is that contrary to dwarves wielding a weapon and a shield, doing individual training sessions, a dual shield wielder actually trains shield skill, it even trains as fast as discipline. Just under two months of training, and both skills are already adequate! However, it does not gain any fighter skill. (A dwarf with weapon and shield doing individual training sessions trains weapon skill and fighter skill, not shield).

Possible implication: I think that civilians will be able to still do all jobs except ofcourse mining, woodcutting and hunting when dual wielding shields. It might very well be the very best possible defensive gear option for civvies, if you can manage to spare them a few months training session time to get some shield proficiency.

I'm curious which skills will be trained best when sparring (except ofcourse shield). Will they focus on wrestling? Shield bashing? We'll see. Depending on the focus, I might switch to a heavier material shield.
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neblime

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Re: Shield dwarves
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2014, 08:40:27 am »

in 34.11 at least they trained misc object user above all else (in fact shield user trained quite slowly for some reason) when I did this
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Skullsploder

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Re: Shield dwarves
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2014, 09:22:59 am »

Nether cap is a cool idea for shields... for normal soldiers only though. For melee soldiers equipped only with shields, you probably want to make them out of copper for the blunt damage increase. Otherwise they'll be about as effective as wooden mauls or maces (i.e. very, very ineffective).
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martinuzz

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Re: Shield dwarves
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2014, 02:42:09 pm »

Nether cap is a cool idea for shields... for normal soldiers only though. For melee soldiers equipped only with shields, you probably want to make them out of copper for the blunt damage increase. Otherwise they'll be about as effective as wooden mauls or maces (i.e. very, very ineffective).

Yeah, I started using nethercap as a precaution, because I am not 100% sure if normal wooden shields will be able to block dragonfire more than once
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Repseki

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Re: Shield dwarves
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2014, 07:06:36 pm »

Unless something changed, shield material shouldn't really matter when blocking dragonfire.
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Chaine Maile

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Re: Shield dwarves
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2014, 09:05:23 pm »

I'm definitely interest in how the sparring goes.
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Panando

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Re: Shield dwarves
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2014, 10:48:57 pm »

Possible implication: I think that civilians will be able to still do all jobs except ofcourse mining, woodcutting and hunting when dual wielding shields. It might very well be the very best possible defensive gear option for civvies, if you can manage to spare them a few months training session time to get some shield proficiency.

The way skill proficiency works it doesn't really matter. A dwarf with dabbling skill in shield user, against an enemy with dabbling attack skill, might block 60% of the time. If you crank it up to adequate, he might block 68% of the time.
Where skill is helpful is really helpful is in "opposed skill checks", lets say a grand master lasher goblin attacks a dabbling shield dwarf, now the dwarf will only block say, 10% of the time. Now the same grand master lasher goblin, attacks a grand master shield dwarf. Now the dwarf might block 70% of the time. I can't remember what thread the graph appeared in (one on bolt/crossbow science), but that's basically how it works. For equal skill level around 60% block, with improving block depending on the degree of out-skilling, and IIRC, more shield skill is better than more weapon skill (i.e. shield skill isn't totally cancelled out by skilled attacker).

Because of this just putting a few levels into shield user does practically nothing as the base blocking rate is already pretty high against the enemies dwarves are likely to encounter. Giving them a shield is an awesome upgrade in their survivability, teaching them how to use it is a much lesser upgrade.
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Chaine Maile

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Re: Shield dwarves
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2014, 11:14:50 pm »

I vaguely remember that thread. Wasn't it back in v31?
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Krewl

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Re: Shield dwarves
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2014, 11:17:05 pm »

For damaging shields you want heavy materials, like silver and gold. Those badasses can actually crush skulls.
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Urist McVoyager

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Re: Shield dwarves
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2014, 11:52:09 pm »

I forget the specific numbers, but there was a thread discussing the merits of dual wielding shields. Basically, blockage was upped a great deal by giving people more than one shield. I don't think there was much merit to going beyond 2 or 3 shields.
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Panando

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Re: Shield dwarves
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2014, 05:11:50 am »

I forget the specific numbers, but there was a thread discussing the merits of dual wielding shields. Basically, blockage was upped a great deal by giving people more than one shield. I don't think there was much merit to going beyond 2 or 3 shields.

Now that is a good argument for issuing a 'hauler uniform' two shields. Usually when I give my civilians uniforms it is to keep them alive (in case of ambush) until the real military arrives to save the day. Dual shields would definitely improve survival, and leather/wood shields are about the lightest thing a dwarf can carry around.
But this must be compared with crossbow / shield. Crossbow shield lets a dwarf be offensively useful as well, hurting snatchers (a gobbo which has passed out from pain will deal no damage at all), or participating in sieges to useful affect (possibly). Dual shield is absolutely dirt cheap compared with crossbow shield, but crossbow shield is also pretty cheap compared with a real uniform. But the sheer absolutely dirt cheapness does make it worth considering.
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martinuzz

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Re: Shield dwarves
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2014, 05:21:02 am »

Not much new to tell, since I am still waiting for a dwarf to grow up.
Shield dwarf is professional Shield user now, and accomplished Discipline. 12 months of individual training sessions have gone by since last post.
She did get to novice Dodger, and adept Observer as well, while training next to another squad that's sparring, and doing demonstrations in the same barracks.
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StagnantSoul

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Re: Shield dwarves
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2014, 05:28:21 am »

I suggest getting him novice in sword or some weapon use, so they won't be discouraged when serving as a soldier. And, with copper shields, couldn't, say, five of these serve as walking walls? If also decked out in great armour. I'd imagine five of these charging some goblins, deflecting a lot of their blows, while a few wardogs attack. Two wardogs per shield dwarf? Or something bigger. Something to give them a good form of attack.
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martinuzz

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Re: Shield dwarves
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2014, 05:55:00 am »

I suggest getting him novice in sword or some weapon use, so they won't be discouraged when serving as a soldier.
The unhappy thoughts for draft / patrol duty have been removed from the game.

walking walls?
Yeah, that's the whole idea. Although the main purpose would be charging archer squads, in particular.
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

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StagnantSoul

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Re: Shield dwarves
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2014, 06:02:02 am »

Wait, when did those get removed? Glad they did.
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