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Author Topic: Galaxia: Remember Tomorrow - 4x space strategy game (Alpha15D)  (Read 86255 times)

Ufnv

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Re: Galaxia: Remember Tomorrow - 4x space strategy game (Alpha15D)
« Reply #225 on: September 16, 2014, 03:53:32 pm »

BTW, one question regarding "galactic council" prototype. Do you think it makes sense to make know all races that are known to the race you have just met? The more I think about it the more it sounds logical. Without this features you are basically restricted with two-three races you met and they often do not know each other, that limits diplomacy options.
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Retropunch

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Re: Galaxia: Remember Tomorrow - 4x space strategy game (Alpha15D)
« Reply #226 on: September 16, 2014, 04:25:24 pm »

BTW, one question regarding "galactic council" prototype. Do you think it makes sense to make know all races that are known to the race you have just met? The more I think about it the more it sounds logical. Without this features you are basically restricted with two-three races you met and they often do not know each other, that limits diplomacy options.

I think the galactic council should only come about in the middle game. I don't think it matters if this is done by a requirement (once you meet three races for instance) or just on a time limit. Once it is formed, it should include all races, including ones you don't know.

If you wanted to make it even more involved (and I think it would be great), you could make it so that you have to be invited into the galactic council by the top three/four civilizations (unless you are one, in which case you are contacted by the other three to start a council). This might involve a number of things to gain access, such as giving a large amount of your economy or sharing technology. You'd then obviously have to make contact with one of the top three civilizations.

As others have said, I think a key point of 4x games should be the ability to play and win without war and I think galactic councils, diplomacy and espionage make that possible.


This really, REALLY gives me a Distant Worlds kind of feel. As in near-reproduction feel.

I really, really don't get that. I mean, other than that it's a 4x in space?? 
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NullForceOmega

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Re: Galaxia: Remember Tomorrow - 4x space strategy game (Alpha15D)
« Reply #227 on: September 16, 2014, 04:52:16 pm »

I don't know about Ufnv, but the galactic council thing has always felt extremely forced and not at all useful gamewise for me at least.  I cannot even describe how poorly conceptualized the idea is, just from the perspective of trying to get multiple different intelligent species cooperating in this form of highly organized manner it does not even make the most remote sense (caveat: without a focal point such as galactic-scale conflict). 
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BFEL

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Re: Galaxia: Remember Tomorrow - 4x space strategy game (Alpha15D)
« Reply #228 on: September 16, 2014, 05:21:07 pm »

BTW, one question regarding "galactic council" prototype. Do you think it makes sense to make know all races that are known to the race you have just met? The more I think about it the more it sounds logical. Without this features you are basically restricted with two-three races you met and they often do not know each other, that limits diplomacy options.

I think the galactic council should only come about in the middle game. I don't think it matters if this is done by a requirement (once you meet three races for instance) or just on a time limit. Once it is formed, it should include all races, including ones you don't know.

If you wanted to make it even more involved (and I think it would be great), you could make it so that you have to be invited into the galactic council by the top three/four civilizations (unless you are one, in which case you are contacted by the other three to start a council). This might involve a number of things to gain access, such as giving a large amount of your economy or sharing technology. You'd then obviously have to make contact with one of the top three civilizations.

This man put into words what I believed from my first game of GalCiv2
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Retropunch

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Re: Galaxia: Remember Tomorrow - 4x space strategy game (Alpha15D)
« Reply #229 on: September 17, 2014, 01:20:09 am »

I don't know about Ufnv, but the galactic council thing has always felt extremely forced and not at all useful gamewise for me at least.  I cannot even describe how poorly conceptualized the idea is, just from the perspective of trying to get multiple different intelligent species cooperating in this form of highly organized manner it does not even make the most remote sense (caveat: without a focal point such as galactic-scale conflict).

Well I'd assume that after a certain level of maturity these races would want to cooperate, at least in terms of trade/general rules? Collective bargaining would also be important, at least to smaller races.   

However, I do agree that usually galactic councils are a bit rubbish in games, as they largely just allow you to vote on random rules which are mostly not of much consequence (GalCiv2). For a galactic council to be interesting, it needs to both have solid benefits in joining, and be able to react to things that happen in game. I'd also imagine that it wouldn't always happen - perhaps only if 3-4 of the main races were on moderately good terms.

It could then arbitrate over wars, offer a joint protection fleet to members, offer better trade rates with members and so on. It'd have to be offset with some downsides, and it might not be something you always want to join, but it could shift the power/gameplay quite a lot. It would become more interesting if there were multiple councils, which would mainly just be a number of alliances. This would allow for NATO/Warsaw Pact style issues to arise.

It all depends how far you want to go into diplomacy and intrigue. I definitely agree that a rubbish galactic council isn't worth having, but an interesting one (or smaller pacts) could really shake the game up by allowing late game shifts in power - which are especially as pretty much every 4x game suffers from late game fatigue/grind.

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Majestic7

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Re: Galaxia: Remember Tomorrow - 4x space strategy game (Alpha15D)
« Reply #230 on: September 17, 2014, 02:15:56 am »

The game already has an option to join together empires. How about this creating a federation that would work through the galactic council thing? So if you wanted to deal with other races for a victory condition you'd need to:

1) Convince them to join a federation, which would work together through the council as an alliance with extra benefits and costs

2) Beat them up till they agree to become your slaves, giving constant tribute and doing what you order them to you, but resenting you and just waiting for the right moment for a backstab

3) Exterminate! EXTERMINATE! (or just conquer & assimilate)

...or a mix of thereof. So one winning condition for the game would a) you are the only empire left or b) everyone left belongs to the federation and the federation has passed edicts XYZ or c) everyone left are your slaves. These would basically be the options on how to deal with minor races too, though they'd naturally be much easier to deal with. Likewise, they'd hold less sway in a federation, but each bring something unique on the table.

Espionage would come into play as factions could try to manipulate federal decisions or outright break the federation by creating hostilities, flame slaves into insurgency and/or support them in their rebellion and so forth.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 03:01:42 am by Majestic7 »
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Ufnv

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Re: Galaxia: Remember Tomorrow - 4x space strategy game (Alpha15D)
« Reply #231 on: September 17, 2014, 01:20:36 pm »

Now this sounds really interesting.

So, the general idea is the game does not force you to participate in any "council" not there a dedicated screen for it.
Instead this is an advanced level of diplomacy - an alternative to alliances. Basically, there can be some political structure that unites several races, giving some benefits but requiring some obligations - financial, military, etc.

In this terms, for example, "slavery" model described by Majestic7 is also a part of a "council" of a very special kind :)

You can either be invited to join, or form a new structure by yourself.

So, there should be a long list of bonuses and trade-offs and when the new "council" is found, it selects some of then as a basic rules.

Need to think about this a bit more, maybe I can make a working model...
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 01:26:16 pm by Ufnv »
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IcyTea31

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Re: Galaxia: Remember Tomorrow - 4x space strategy game (Alpha15D)
« Reply #232 on: September 17, 2014, 01:26:23 pm »

Another tweak to the diplomacy system might be to hide the disposition bars. After all, you should only know how much they like you by their actions, because anyone with any experience in realpolitik (interstellar empire leaders, definitely) knows to hide his exact agenda.
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Retropunch

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Re: Galaxia: Remember Tomorrow - 4x space strategy game (Alpha15D)
« Reply #233 on: September 18, 2014, 10:40:33 am »

Now this sounds really interesting.

So, the general idea is the game does not force you to participate in any "council" not there a dedicated screen for it.
Instead this is an advanced level of diplomacy - an alternative to alliances. Basically, there can be some political structure that unites several races, giving some benefits but requiring some obligations - financial, military, etc.

In this terms, for example, "slavery" model described by Majestic7 is also a part of a "council" of a very special kind :)

You can either be invited to join, or form a new structure by yourself.

So, there should be a long list of bonuses and trade-offs and when the new "council" is found, it selects some of then as a basic rules.

Need to think about this a bit more, maybe I can make a working model...

That's exactly what I'd love to see! The rules of any alliance could be voted on, with members having more influence/power having more say. These would obviously be tied to the race preferences, so certain races might not ever join an alliance with certain rules. Other races could be joined into the alliance as time goes on as well. You could eventually end up having major alliances (like the Federation v Klingon Empire) and I think that would make for extremely interesting gameplay!

A galactic council would be just one of many forms of alliances that could come up. I'd suggest that you could even have different levels of alliances within alliances. This could work a bit like NATO is an alliance, which is within the United Nations. The United Nations style 'galactic council' would only intervene (or come together) over very major issues, and would also have some very basic rules (no attacking members, no slavery and so on). Obviously, not everyone is forced to join the council, but you would get some basic protections by joining.

Another tweak to the diplomacy system might be to hide the disposition bars. After all, you should only know how much they like you by their actions, because anyone with any experience in realpolitik (interstellar empire leaders, definitely) knows to hide his exact agenda.
I agree, diplomacy should definitely be something which is a bit more fluid. The player needs to be able to actually feel immersed in the diplomacy rather than it just being about numbers. Uncovering their motives via espionage and negotiations would then become a big part of the gameplay.


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TheDarkStar

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Re: Galaxia: Remember Tomorrow - 4x space strategy game (Alpha15D)
« Reply #234 on: September 18, 2014, 07:21:48 pm »

Some bugs I found:

After donating resources, the disposition dropped down for Neutral and then war got declared. Also, there seems to be a bug with the last research - Antigravity Shield III was unresearched but not in the list for a while and then it was finished without me doing anything to it.
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Akura

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Re: Galaxia: Remember Tomorrow - 4x space strategy game (Alpha15D)
« Reply #235 on: September 19, 2014, 03:25:11 pm »

This really, REALLY gives me a Distant Worlds kind of feel. As in near-reproduction feel.

Really? It looks nothing like DW to me. I've already said it felt like Pax Imperia: Eminent Domain to me.
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Sting_Auer

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Re: Galaxia: Remember Tomorrow - 4x space strategy game (Alpha15D)
« Reply #236 on: September 20, 2014, 09:12:38 pm »

Story time! I am playing as the Vagalars on Hard difficulty.

As things usually go for me, I began by deleting all existing ship designs; I prefer to start with a clean slate. Suggestion: It would be nice if we could export ship designs so we don't need to recreate them every game.

I started a new Elliptical galaxy, spawning in the bottom left region. I began by queuing up 15 Colonizer Mk1-stand, designed with exploration in mind. As they constructed, I would send them out as far as they could go, exploring uncharted solar systems and colonizing a planet once their fuel ran out. I would later go back and colonize the planets between my home world and the outer boundary once I was a bit more developed.

For technology, I set Xenobiology to priority, then Hydroponics to priority; In my earlier games, I would frequently run out of food. I've made it my priority to avoid that problem. It also gives me a head start on unlocking Seismic and Radioactive colonizer modules and atmospheric domes, which will help with filling out my territory and padding my resource stocks early on.

I continued to explore, eventually meeting Gavakens to the "north" and Drills to the south, allied to each other. I quickly found out that I was boxed in by them, but I had carved out a respectable territory with a decent scientific base and good resource stores. I started to pay them off with any excess resources I had; I wanted to become good friends with them, lest I be destroyed on 2 fronts.

It took me quite a while, but I managed to get the Gavakens and Drills to give me open borders after dropping thousands and thousands of units of all kinds of resources over a long period of time. I began to explore out further, colonizing all unclaimed worlds I came across; It is my policy to colonize Exhausted worlds as Agricultural to help boost food production, even by a tiny bit. They can always be converted to industrial if needed.

Eventually, I encountered the Humans to the north, past Gavaken lands. They had declared war on the Gavakens and Drills, and I was more than willing to help defend my new allies. I began to pump out ships as quickly as I could, and directed research towards unlocking new hulls and ever-more efficient modules. I colonized planets in chokepoints between the Humans and Gavakens, waiting for the humans to begin demanding the planets from me. Once they did, I denied them until they were "forced" to declare war. This gave me enough time to whip up some ships for probing attacks, to get a grasp on what the human fleets were capable of.

I started with designing the "Cruiser carrier Mk1" ship. I created two, both loaded with 44 assault shuttles. The Cruisers themselves had little armament beyond defensive measures, but they were sturdy and fairly cheap. I sent two Cruiser carrier Mk1's to attack 3-4 (I cannot remember exactly), and while I lost the battle, I gained some valuable information: The human ships did not seem to fare well against the Shuttles I had designed, and my shuttles were not even armed as anti-ship.

Using this new-found information, I plan to develop a new line of carriers designed to cut into Human territory and fortify chokepoints in the warp lanes. They will regret ever demanding Vagalar stars.
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Thank you everyone for the help! I've since flooded the fortress I was working on and now have a new one going up.

Ufnv

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Re: Galaxia: Remember Tomorrow - 4x space strategy game (Alpha15D)
« Reply #237 on: September 21, 2014, 11:00:46 am »

As things usually go for me, I began by deleting all existing ship designs; I prefer to start with a clean slate. Suggestion: It would be nice if we could export ship designs so we don't need to recreate them every game.
Good suggestion, thanks! It is scheduled for the next release.

Quote
I continued to explore, eventually meeting Gavakens to the "north" and Drills to the south, allied to each other. I quickly found out that I was boxed in by them, but I had carved out a respectable territory with a decent scientific base and good resource stores. I started to pay them off with any excess resources I had; I wanted to become good friends with them, lest I be destroyed on 2 fronts.
Note that both Drill and Gavakens (especially Drills) tend not to value alliances and can easily attack you later despite of being your "allies" :)

Quote
I colonized planets in chokepoints between the Humans and Gavakens, waiting for the humans to begin demanding the planets from me.
BTW, the quickest way is to colonise a planet just in a system that already has planets colonised by your "potential enemy".

Quote
lost the battle, I gained some valuable information: The human ships did not seem to fare well against the Shuttles I had designed, and my shuttles were not even armed as anti-ship.
Watch out the resources, if you decide to have small ships as your main strike power. Shuttles can cost a very high upkeep!
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Ufnv

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Re: Galaxia: Remember Tomorrow - 4x space strategy game (Alpha15D)
« Reply #238 on: September 21, 2014, 11:02:14 am »

Also, there seems to be a bug with the last research - Antigravity Shield III was unresearched but not in the list for a while and then it was finished without me doing anything to it.
Thanks, fixed this!
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Ufnv

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Re: Galaxia: Remember Tomorrow - 4x space strategy game (Alpha15D)
« Reply #239 on: September 21, 2014, 11:20:22 am »

That's exactly what I'd love to see! The rules of any alliance could be voted on, with members having more influence/power having more say. These would obviously be tied to the race preferences, so certain races might not ever join an alliance with certain rules. Other races could be joined into the alliance as time goes on as well. You could eventually end up having major alliances (like the Federation v Klingon Empire) and I think that would make for extremely interesting gameplay!
Well, I am thinking how to re-balance the diplomacy and tie it with espionage system. Will come back soon with some proposals :)
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