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Author Topic: Ranged weapons are imbalanced  (Read 3708 times)

puke

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Re: Ranged weapons are imbalanced
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2007, 09:18:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by ElectricEel:
<STRONG>and as such, was only wielded by warrior aristocrats</STRONG>

um, no.  most of your post is fairly correct, but this is just.. no.

but to the main point of the thread:

theres a great deal of pissing among professional historians about the acutal armor piercing value of the welsh longbow.  a new clique claims that it really has not much of any at all, and that its triumph in the hundred-years-war was mainly due to crowd dynamics and the french aristocracy being unwilling to engage or even consider english pesants as real combattants.

of course, traditionalists dispute that.  results of replica period bows against replica period armor vary depending on whos performing the test.

i dont really want to get into that. but i will point out that unless some one here has the accademic credentials to put paid to the actual real world debate, then bickering about it here problaby isnt going to resolve anything.

as far as DF goes, crossbow reload times are too fast, and spinning live worms are too deadly.  as for bows?  i guess i dont really care.

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Trelack

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Re: Ranged weapons are imbalanced
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2007, 10:48:00 pm »

Please don't stress Toady over this trivial problem when he can be stressing about army implementation  :).
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Keilden

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Re: Ranged weapons are imbalanced
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2007, 02:15:00 am »

Rate Of Fire =to high.
When my dwarf hunter see a pray the sound effects PEW PEW PEW would be fitting.
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iteyoidar

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Re: Ranged weapons are imbalanced
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2007, 04:50:00 pm »

i dont think its necessary(its somewhat ridiculous actually) to somehow attempt to make dwarf fortress's combat historically accurate.

on the other hand, there should be some reason to choose between a bow or a crossbow.

What if crossbows remained killer armor-piercing weapons, while bows weren't quite as dangerous.  Then:

goblins and kobolds, except for the important leaders maybe, are presumably too dim-witted to know how to use crossbows.

dwarfs(and maybe humans and elfs in the distant future) get bad thoughts when they use the dishonorable crossbow.  dwarfs seem like they'd prefer to hack things to death with axes and swords anyway.

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Dreamer

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Re: Ranged weapons are imbalanced
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2007, 05:18:00 pm »

That would imply that dwarves, humans, and elves had any honor: As it is, they seem about as dishonorable as they can get, what with traps and such, dwarves and elves in particular.  Humans seem fairly neutral in most respects, but have the potency to be rather rude.
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Slartibartfast

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Re: Ranged weapons are imbalanced
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2007, 05:58:00 pm »

But a crossbow has all those mechanisms dwarves love to tamper with.
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Re: Ranged weapons are imbalanced
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2007, 10:09:00 am »

Okay, bows vs. hornbows vs. greatbows vs. crossbows vs. maile vs. plate vs. lorica.

Bows

Bows sucked. They were, at best, for hunting or for killing poorly armored enemies. On the other hand, you could ride a horse and use one, and if you were good enough you could get an arrow through a weak point if you were close enough (or if the target wasn't moving).


Hornbows

Hornbows were much better. Long range, and the material allowed for more flex, which meant more acceleration time, which meant the arrows travelled farther and hit harder (and had a longer "penetrates shield or metal range"). And you could wield them on horseback. Unfortunately, these composite bows relied on glue to hold them together, and tended to fall apart in any kind of humidity. This limited them to desert and steppe dwellers, generally nomadic barbarians. (And was one reason the bastards were so feared.)


Greatbows

Greatbows had all the range and penetrating power of hornbows - maybe even a little more - and since they were non-composite, they didn't fall apart in humidity. Of course, you had to make sure to keep either yew or hickory on hand. And they were so big that you had to be at least 6 feet tall to use them. You also needed great big arm muscles to use them. (DnD elves? Too short, too skinny.)

The nice thing about your greatbowmen is that if you have command over the terrain - such as easily-placed stakes to deter charging cavalry - you can shred almost any attacking force. The English matched 1500 greatbowmen vs. 45,000 French heavy cavalry and very nearly won. (Granted, they were just French, but France was rich back then and could afford the best toys. So it's still like almost winning against 20-1 odds. Maybe 15-1. Well, okay, but no less than 10-1.)

(England trained all the greatbowmen they could, but they only had 1,500 available. That says something about the requirements.)

To train up greatbowmen takes either a few months of dedicated training or 5+ years of weekend drilling. At least one king made it a requirement that anyone who was physically qualified _had_ to drill on the weekends.

Yew eventually became in critically short supply, by the way, and hickory was only available in America.

The Japanese had a greatbow variant that samurai could use on horseback, but I don't know the specifics.

Note that compound bows, the ones with pulleys, allow someone with a given strength to use a stronger draw, leading to even more range and penetration. And greatbow skill transfers to compound bows without any major retraining required.

Assuming seasoned wood is available, an experienced bowyer can make a greatbow in about an hour.


Crossbows

Crossbows win against bows, having better range and penetration, but fail against hornbows and greatbows, having less range and penetration and _much_ less rate of fire.

On the other hand, they are literally point-and-click weapons, and recruits could be trained up for volley fire in less than a month. No need for 6+ foot supermen, either.

At one point the Pope issued an auto-excommunication if you used crossbows against your fellow Christians.

Beryllium bronze would make crossbows that negate most of the disadvantages in comparison to greatbows. However, beryllium bronze is an advanced material - dwarves can have it as a secret technique, but humans shouldn't be able to discover it with medieval technology.

Crossbows are inevitably expensive, because of the multiple parts required. And they take a while to put together.


Maile

French for "mesh". (Remember, in the Middle Ages the French convinced everyone that they were cool. It was a f**ked up time.) DnD's "chainmail" is taken from a Victorian-era bit of pseudohistoric romantisation of maile. But, yeah, interlocking rings of metal, all the weight on the shoulders, stops slashes and most chops but can't do much against trusts or impact weapons. "Pile" arrows, with narrow points, go right through maile with any luck, and is in fact what they were made for. (Although the broadhead design leaves nastier wounds - those barbs, etc.)

Once you have the 'wire' stuff that makes up the individual rings, maile can be assembled by an apprentice under supervision.


Plate

At first just plate over the more rigid parts of the body (with maile underneath), the state-of-the-art eventually including fluting. Joint protection was available. Weight was slightly higher than maile, but was distributed far better. A properly made suit allowed for somersaults and flips, and such armor commonly bore the proof that a handgunne bullet had been discharged into it without penetrating.

Expensive as hell. You needed high-quality iron and a master armorsmith. It was not unknown for ambitious rulers to promise knighthood to the sons of wealthy merchants if they would provide the armor themselves.

(Another dwarven secret can probably come up with bessemer steel, if not quite with the same process because that would make bessemer steel way too cheap. If you have an elemental that can separate out pure oxygen, you can make high-quality steel from any quality of iron, by the way.)

Properly armored knights tended to _not_ die in battle, by the way. You needed to be within 50 yards with a greatbow to get through the stuff, or you needed to mob the knight with enough people to hold him down and fend off any rescuers for long enough to pry the armor open and get a knife through.


Lorica

What the roman legions had. The inspiration for DnD "Banded Mail". If you could afford the metal version, it was very nearly as good as plate, but required much less expertise to put together. (Among other things, it doesn't have to be fitted to the person at the time of forging beyond general size requirements.)

Working man's armor. The only real disadvantage to plate is that it doesn't have the joint protection, so expert-level archers can do the joint targetting thing, and someone who can get in with a knife might be able to slip between the bands of metal. (This can be fixed with maile, if you don't mind adding ~10 pounds to your load.)

-Albert

[ July 03, 2007: Message edited by: Albert the Absentminded ]

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Faces of Mu

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Re: Ranged weapons are imbalanced
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2007, 10:42:00 am »

Nice work Albert! Concise but detailed. Thank-you!
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Re: Ranged weapons are imbalanced
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2007, 10:58:00 am »

Thank _you_. But I'm not an expert. If you want to check my sources, look at:

Baen's Bar
Old Geezer at RPGnet
ARMA (more on the weapon side, though)

-Albert

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MisterMister

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Re: Ranged weapons are imbalanced
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2007, 03:25:00 am »

Err I strongly disagree with any sentiment that longbows be made super 1337 weapons while everything else gets the s-can "easy j00 use LOL" label.

By "strongly disagree" I mean after reading Albert's post I began vomitting profusely out of my arse and ears (no offense).

That and the goofy French bashing. Ugh, seriously what funnies that were ever there have been absolutely ruined by every bandwangon jumpin' boober from the 90's.  You've killed the joke, the same way 4chan droids kill Southpark gags via memetic asshattery.  Rest in peace manbearpig.

Mainly, reality/realism, whatever, is unimportant to gaming.  If I cared that much about reality I wouldn't be sitting on my tight manly butt cheeks playing with imaginary bearded midgets.

Not to mention that reality is too complicated to be shoe horned into gaming.  Plus people get it borked anyway.  For instance crossbows aren't "point and click"  They're still archery weapons and behave the same way in volley shots.  We know this this from the Visby mass grave, the Polish arcade shooting, Olaus Magnus' written accounts and so on.  Even the English used them during the "longbow period."  Depicted in art:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Siege_orleans.jpg
and described by Joan of Arc's accounts of her wounds as coming from an "arbalest."

Heck, "brokyn men" soldiers from the English army who turned robber enjoyed the use of the crossbow over the longbow if the cries of the clergy in the country over such use is any indication.  If the weapon was for "noobs" the so called fat armed ubermenschs wouldn't have used them.  

And no they did not "fail" against horn and greatbows.  At Mohi a few crossbowman held a huge bridge against the Golden Horde.  They could only be countered by the Mongols with giant SIEGE weapons.  During the Hussite Crusades longbow mercs met grisly ends at the hands of a crossbow laden wagenburg.  At the battle of Aussig the Hussites supposedly killed more men than Agincourt and Crecy combined.  In short, crossbows are badass. Please keep em that way.

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Ancient Whale

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Re: Ranged weapons are imbalanced
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2007, 06:00:00 am »

As has been said before, the problem is the extremely high rate of fire in DF. Certainly, ranged weapons are badass in real life, but it is neither realistic nor very entertaining when a crossbowman, or a bowman, for that matter, can release a missile for every step his enemy takes towards him.

Without any research, I would guess a bowman could at most shoot an arrow for every four steps the enemy takes. A crossbowman would take longer, depending on the power of the crossbow(only slightly longer for hand-pulled light crossbows, which may even have less armor-piercing power than regular warbows, and most considerably longer for arbalests, which are very powerful indeed.)

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Tormy

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Re: Ranged weapons are imbalanced
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2007, 09:35:00 am »

Yes the rate of fire is messed up also, all kind of ranged weapons should be much slower.
However I still say that the dmg what they do is also absolutely imbalanced. 1 shot takes down a warrior in full plate....this is madness!   :D
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TerminatorII

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Re: Ranged weapons are imbalanced
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2007, 10:53:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Albert the Absentminded:
<STRONG>
Greatbows

Greatbows had all the range and penetrating power of hornbows - maybe even a little more - and since they were non-composite, they didn't fall apart in humidity. Of course, you had to make sure to keep either yew or hickory on hand. And they were so big that you had to be at least 6 feet tall to use them. You also needed great big arm muscles to use them. (DnD elves? Too short, too skinny.)

The nice thing about your greatbowmen is that if you have command over the terrain - such as easily-placed stakes to deter charging cavalry - you can shred almost any attacking force. The English matched 1500 greatbowmen vs. 45,000 French heavy cavalry and very nearly won. (Granted, they were just French, but France was rich back then and could afford the best toys. So it's still like almost winning against 20-1 odds. Maybe 15-1. Well, okay, but no less than 10-1.)

(England trained all the greatbowmen they could, but they only had 1,500 available. That says something about the requirements.)

To train up greatbowmen takes either a few months of dedicated training or 5+ years of weekend drilling. At least one king made it a requirement that anyone who was physically qualified _had_ to drill on the weekends.

Yew eventually became in critically short supply, by the way, and hickory was only available in America.

-Albert

[ July 03, 2007: Message edited by: Albert the Absentminded ]</STRONG>


I feel that I must point out, that England had a hill that was surrounded on three sides by either sea or salt marsh, and the final 4th side was under 300 yards wide. Also, The French cavalry did not succeed in breaking through until the English Pike wall was routed. (this happened when king Herald (sp?) died when he looked up into the sky and an arrow came straight down and went through his eye and killed him.) the Archers alone held the knights at bay for another hour, (10 hours of firing btw.) with the help ofthe Kings royal guard, after the pike men had fled.

Arrows are pretty impressive.


Also on the Plate, Plate took considerable time and skill to make. someone would commision a pice from a very wealthy and skilled smith and then 3-5 years later, the suit would be completed. At that time the same smith could commision a suit of chain with 1/8inch rings in 8point interlocks (so tight light barely can shine through.) could be completed in a couple of days. This tight link mail was designe to counter arrows, and coupled with a 1.5 inch thick cotton padding underneath and slik against the skin, could stop arrows from even longbows at medium range.


The more common 1/4 inch 4 point interlock mail was considerably lighter, and easier to make. (and could be made by an aprentice.) but provided Wayyyy less protection.


teh major difference between crossbows and bowswas the ammunition and the velocity of the rounds. Arows are shaped like so:   >>-->   or: >>----   Crossbows however are shapped like so: ---- or: ----|  the "blunt" bolts pierce plate armor like an arrow through cotton. Mail armor actually stopped this type of crossbow bolt from penetrating, but the victim would still suffer most of the kinetic energy from the bolt and usually suffer from either broken bones, or internal damage resulting in death. the pointed bolt was used against unarmored foes (archers) or against mail (which it could easily penetrate.)

[ July 10, 2007: Message edited by: TerminatorII ]

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MisterMister

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Re: Ranged weapons are imbalanced
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2007, 02:55:00 pm »

It was 3 am so I left out some parts of what I think about the game design, but yes I do agree that everything needs a nerf so there is more of a buffer to prevent insta death.  The game player shouldn't be punished so severely by the RNG.

The problem with the whole rate of fire issue is that I've never seen it done well.  I would rather have parity by everything being the same and retaining stylistic differences than go down that route.  You either wind up with the slow weapon being wimpy or outright overpowered because it's using less ammo for the same or greater dps. A somewhat funny example is that in Lord of the Rings Online the crossbow is super powered for just that reason.  The canon however doesn't include them (plate armor isn't in the story either...).  So out of a slew of fantasy games that screw crossbows over the one game that does the exact opposite, isn't suppose to have them in the first place.   :p

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Tommy2U

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Re: Ranged weapons are imbalanced
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2007, 06:29:00 pm »

I believe TerminatorII has mixed up battle of Hastings and Hundred Years War :)

Crossbow rate of fire, taken from http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2866061

quote:

The crossbow is much slower than the longbow. During the peak of the longbow's usage, an archer had to be able to loose 12 arrows a minute and was expected to loose more. A competent archer could manage 17 or so - and an exceptional archer could manage up to 24 per minute. Comparatively the crossbow managed far less, although there is no single figure due to the different methods of spanning the bow.

   * Windlass (400lb or greater) One per minute (or less!)
   * Cranequin (250lb +) Two or maybe three if lucky!
   * Goat's foot lever (250lb - 350lb) Three per minute
   * Belt Hook (125lb +) Three to four
   * Hand-spanned (equal to or less than 125lb) Seven, or possibly eight per minute  


Out of the above, windlass and cranequin are rather advanced, 15th century spanning mechanisms.

Arrows and bolts have the same damage in dwarf fortress, which would indicate that crossbows are of simple designs.
(I don't know if launcher material affects missile damage, if that's the case metal crossbows have a distinct edge)
Thus crossbow should shoot 2-3 slower than bow.
Crossbow could be made more accurate/easier to increase skill or just different species/cultures would use different weapons.
Archers and crossbowmen's fire rate is way overdone as it is now.
Shields should over larger protection against missiles. This being a fantasy game, dodging arrows or even deflecting them with weapons with high enough skill levels could be alternatives.

LOTRO combat system shouldn't be taken as something to aspire to when we have a beautiful, gory and dangerous DF system with pools of vomit and flying limbs ;)

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