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[Tormy]

Is it just me, or someone else also finds the ranged weapons way too overpowered? I dont think that a soldier in full plate wielding a shield should die from a single arrow for example.
I know that we can mode the damage of the various weapons, but I was wondering that why Toady wasn't balancing this in the vanilla game.

PS.
I think that Ive made this thread in the wrong sub-forum. It should be in the general or suggestions sub-forum. So Toady, if its important please move it there.
 

[ June 29, 2007: Message edited by: Tormy ]

[Zonk]

I think that, historically, ranged weapons were THAT dangerous. Although there are still debates on whetever arrows could easily pierce full plate and at what distance...I guess it depends on type of bow and the archer's strength. Do remember that crossbows are known to be "armor piercing",and that it is realistic - if "unbalanced"- that a single bolt in the right place can kill someone.

[Ravendas]

The thing is, that currently in one shot they can pierce both eyes, pierce your throat, and break your brain. And this isn't uncommon. Cap it at one or two crits that make sense, but as is it's ridiculously overpowered.

A chest shot can take out both lungs and the heart, from a shot straight forward. I could see that happening in a very lucky shot to the side, but it just shouldn't happen as often as it does.

[Slartibartfast]

Viking's chainmail made them almost imprevious to javelins*, so I think a full suit of Dwarven armor should be quite resistant to arrows.
Especially if you suit your dwarves in two layers of chainmail and a layer of plate (possible in DF! I think they wear one layer of chainmail as padding for the plate, and the other as an overcoat on the plate.)

*-In a modern test, a javelin pierced 3cm into the chainmail suit, not enough to pierce through the inner layer of padding. This is compared to traditional chainmail which was pierced ~12cm through, enough to kill. Hooray for the science** channel.
**-Channel 8 is its real name, but I doubt saying hooray for channel 8 would retain its meaning for anyone not residing in Israel. And its not like they didn't buy that show from some other channel.

[Misterstone]

This page has tons of useful well-researched information... though I think most of the research is done of late european Middle-Ages/renaissance era arms and armor.  Remember, this stuff isn't just someone's opinion, it is well-done scholarly research based on original sources.  Check out the links under the "resources" section.

http://www.thearma.org/

As for missile weapons being powerful, the truth is they definitely were.  Maybe crossbows should be a little slower to reload though, if they are the kind of crossbow that can punch through plate; those usually took a lot of rewinding with a winch and tackle, right?  Some of the really light crossbows (like the hand-cocked Chinese warring-states era variety) probably didn't have as much penetrating power... in fact, I doubt they could get through decent chainmail most of the time.

Oh yeah, and thrown items in this game are pretty unbalanced in adv. mode.  Actually, they are probably just buggy.  I'm sure the dev knows all about this- its been a source of jokes for quite some time.  Seems like anything that spins in flight does mega-damage.
[ June 29, 2007: Message edited by: Misterstone ]

[ June 29, 2007: Message edited by: Misterstone ]

[Dwarmin]

I arrow damage right now should do that to unarmed civilians, but a think any armor over leather should really reduce the chance of instakills. Losing your hammerlord with +steel plate+ in one shot. It really sucks, it should happen if you expose them to enough fire, but not ALL your legendarys need to die in one battle, by 4 archers..Mostly I want to fight real battles, and take acceptable losses to my situation.

[Tormy]

Guys, please dont even think about real life ranged weapons, this is a fantasy game.
Also, do you really think that a single arrow would pierce through plate? No way. Not even on chain armor.
I think that armors should reduce the ranged dmg scaling with armor type.
Example: [ranged weapon dmg vs. armor types.]

cloth: 100% ranged dmg -> highest chance for a lethal shot
leather: 80% ranged dmg
chain: 50% ranged dmg
plate: 30% ranged dmg -> slightest chance for a lethal shot
plate + shield: 20% ranged dmg -> almost no chance for a lethal shot.

[puke]

i also think that we should use the relative slope of each piece of armor (as figgured from the angle of attack) as a multiplier to the armors thickness...

[Mechanoid]

quote:Originally posted by Tormy:
Is it just me, or someone else also finds the ranged weapons way too overpowered?

Be thankful their ammo is limited.

[ColonelTEE3]

I consider it very accurate that full iron plate mail can be pierced by an arrow. Have you ever heard of an english long bow? Those things can pierce plate mail like its paper..

[Jeon]

I find it accurate that armor CAN be pierced by the shots.  It's just that ranged weapons shouldn't have the near perfect accuracy they have now, the machine gun fire rate, and not ever being deflected by hitting at an angle.

I personally mod by shields to have double the default block chance but weigh more.  It feels a little bit cheap but it makes legendary champions actually feel legendary and gives lesser skilled fighters a chance to live.  It can also make enemy weapon masters pretty hard to bring down if they use a shield.  And it's not like the better shield makes you invincible since getting caught off guard or attacked from behind can still take you out.

[Dreamer]

I think ranged weapons have been implemented to give the players the 'Oh Crap' feeling when they see an archer; something to be apprehensive about and keep you on your toes.

I think what really needs to be fixed is the AIs vision...  If I can only see four spaces around myself, then they should too.  They shouldn't be able to kill me from a hundred feet or so away in the dark while its raining.

There also needs to be more factors in play when firing a weapon, I think, to make them less kill perfect - Crossbows jamming, the bow breaking (They shouldn't last forever), the string snapping (Must bring extras, takes time to replace it), wind, rain and snow, distractions...  Shooting while underwater...  There could be a lot done to make bows more realistic and, perhaps, more fun.

As it stands they don't have the same random-factor and situational happenings as melee weapons or thrown objects.

[ June 30, 2007: Message edited by: Dreamer ]

[ June 30, 2007: Message edited by: Dreamer ]

[Bien]

Maybe they're aiming for exposed areas or joints (Plate mail is always weakest at the joints).

[Temrek]

The ranged weapons in the game has insane rate of fire, realistically there should be a 2-3 second delay between each shot from a bow, and crossbows should have a delay a couple seconds longer then the bow.

Also, even longbows with bodkin arrows had trouble piercing plate armor. They certainly could but they did not do it anywhere near realibly. My source if ARMA.com

[ElectricEel]

Yeah. The rate of fire of ranged weapons is way too fast and IMO, particularly against metal armor, they are way too effective. A large shield should also definately be far more effective against ranged attacks.

If bows could mow down heavily armored warriors like some people claim, numerous peoples throughout history wouldn't have gone through the huge effort and expense to procure that armor. It should also be noted that the vast majority of combatants for most of history have worn only light or no armor besides a shield, and usually didn't get utterly massacred by ranged fire.

I'd also like to add that the longbow was not a common weapon. It was a tool of war that required many years of practice to wield competently, and as such, was only wielded by warrior aristocrats and professional soldiers, expect in some very specific times and places. I see no reason to presume that *every* bow in the game is the omgwtfuber longbow, allegedly cabable of mowing down plate-armored knights. (     :roll: )

As for crossbows, normal ones probably should be cabable of punching through gain with some regularity - though I'd restrict punching through plate to heavier (unwielder, slower-to-reload) ones. They should be much slower to reload & shoot than bows (which in turn should be made much slower than they are now - I can't emphasize this enough; after nocking the arrow and drawing the bow, the bowman has to spend several more seconds aiming, and a man should be able to close significant distance in that time). Stuff like thrown spears probably should be decently effective against armor (though lightly-encumbered warriors should have a decent chance of dodging the slow projectiles). As for things like monarch butterfly corpses, mittens and whatnot - well, they shouldn't be very effective...

[ July 01, 2007: Message edited by: ElectricEel ]