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Author Topic: Initial Naga discussion  (Read 26164 times)

Eko

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #75 on: September 11, 2014, 06:09:13 pm »

I've been playing a few test forts, and I'm liking the results so far.  One thing that is really bothering me, and something I see as hampering accessibility is the look and feel of water currently. 

It is very helpful to play with numbered water on, just to make sure pathing is ok.  You want to make sure that everything is 3/7 or less, so having them there helps, but it also doesn't look very nice.  It also hampers the visibility and usability of things like zones and stockpiles.  The flowing nature of the water from the habitation module can push certain things around, and even off of ledges, so having a food stockpile on dry land above a water area is the only way I could keep things organized.  All of this has led me to a kind of a crossroads.  I consider it of paramount importance to get the "feel" of playing in water right.  Therefore, I'm going to put the raws aside for right now and work on some way to make either 3/7 and below water transparent, so you can see below it, or maybe make the numbers small and in the top corner, rather than bold in the middle so they aren't so "neon-light" intrusive.

That is a big project, but I have some ideas and I think I have a good solution, I just need to see if I can do what I need to do, and not bother mifki's plugin.  (Which also leads me to another thing that I'm really worried about.  I play ONLY with graphics, and I don't think this will work with ascii, or with anyone who doesn't want TwbT) 

Aside from that, mostly good things.  Creatures are working well, the spitting cobra seems to be an excellent hunting pet, and I've tried to make some decent reactions for some leather items from aquatic creatures.  Haven't tested a lot else, but I got a few interactions going for flame stuff from salamanders and drenching/lightning (just pain really) from oracles and witches.  This weekend will be focused on scripts and dfhack, but I'll try to sprinkle in a few screenshots if I can get some fun stuff working. 
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Meph

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #76 on: September 11, 2014, 06:40:44 pm »

You mean like this?



Shallow water is lighter, deeper water is darker. You can also toggle the numbers, see the dfhack init "keybinding add Ctrl-W twaterlvl". Either type twaterlvl into dfhack or press ctrl W ingame and it switches from numbers to no numbers.

I dont know much about the graphic parts, but making the tiles transparent would be something I'd suggest to mifki, instead of doing it yourself. He knows more about things like that than anyone else, considering he already made item backgrounds transparent to show multiple tiles at once.

Personally I think that players should figure out how it works best. I always imagine a Venice-like fortress, with waterways for transport, but the actual buildings, furniture and stockpiles on dry land. Surrounded by a largish moat with 3/7 water full of watery warbeasts.
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venum4k

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #77 on: September 11, 2014, 07:47:58 pm »

On the note of "half human, half snake" vs "all scales", personally I think it makes more sense to go for all scales. Depending on the backstory, having them change their skin (scales, whatever you want to call it) half way up their body into something completely different seems pretty inconsistent. If they're meant to have heavily magical origins then it would make some sense, but if they end up with a more mundane, realistic (to some degree, fantasy world and all that :\) origin then I think their bodies should be covered with the same, or similar things all over, large harder scales at certain places are fine, with small softer ones elsewhere.
But then maybe it's cause this cinematic has stuck with me over the years; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqB3KeiBLuw

I don't feel they should be too human in physical characteristics if you get what I mean.
I like this and this.
But I don't really like this...
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Stuebi

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2014, 04:21:28 am »

I'm gonna agree with venum. I would love it if the snake-theme is used to it's maximum potential, not only for the looks. but also because I think it's interesting from a culture and combat-standpoint. I know it was posted quite a few pages back, but Meph mentioned giving them japanese weaponry. For example: Wakizashis, Daitos or even No-Dachis depending on the size of your guys. I also like the idea of them being proficient with Halberds, because I think that snakelike / rapid movements combined with a long polearm looks friggin awesome.

I dunno if it would be a decent idea to port japanese armor as well, at least one should not go overboard with the names. It would still be cool to craft the iconic ones at least (Kabuto-Headgear etc.).

And, just out of curiosity, is it possible to tame and / or breed animals that live in water? I like the idea of Naga being able to have Sharks for hunting / war purposes.
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English isnt my mother language, so feel free to correct me if I make a mistake in my post.

Meph

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2014, 04:34:14 am »

You mean like this?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Stuebi

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #80 on: September 12, 2014, 05:40:39 am »

Pretty much, yes. I wa slooking for a decent example over google but couldn't find one (sitting at work right now). I especially adore the snake designs on some of the pieces.

Imagine now simliar designs with swords, naginata or even a kanabo (club):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The armor allready looks somewhat "scaly" and if one imagines the lower part on the legs to be a bit longer or "layered" for the tails, I think it fits very nicely.

I know that it may be the fanboy in me speaking, but I _love_ this design and honestly, I giggle like a schoolboy imagining this stuff on Naga.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 05:42:31 am by Stuebi »
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English isnt my mother language, so feel free to correct me if I make a mistake in my post.

Meph

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #81 on: September 12, 2014, 06:23:28 am »

That "scaly" you mean is actually called scale armor, or lamellar. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamellar_armour & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_armour#Japanese_scale_armours

Thats why I suggested it as well, but Eko stated that he wont go full japanese on them. But even so, scale armor fits perfectly, either as item or a scale-upgrade. The gem-encrusted scales idea was liked as well.
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
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Sagus

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2014, 10:44:33 am »

Considering that Naga have their origin in Hindu myths, wouldn't it make more sense for the to have Indian style armor? Like this, these or these. You guys already used Japanese armor and weapons for the orcs, after all.
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Mithril Leaf

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #83 on: September 13, 2014, 03:58:16 pm »

Legend of the Five Rings has naga that I know very little about, but I do know that in the book of the campaign setting for D&D, they had the Shinomen Naga, which might be worth checking out.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It also has Dagon as a chaotic evil demon prince that was absolutely writhing with tentacles and madness.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 04:00:09 pm by Mithril Leaf »
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Eko

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #84 on: September 14, 2014, 03:57:31 pm »

Quick update and armor discussion

I've spent most of my recent time debugging raws.  It is a cumbersome process, but I've managed to fix about 8 things I thought were fine, but weren't.  I've done more work on the lua scripts, and have had to back down on at least one "really cool" thing I wanted to do with my mod (the buildings dynamically managing possible labors based on location) which is something I'm sad about.  Other parts are working well, however, and I've had a few !!FUN!! forts where I made it all the way to steel axes and coral breastplates before suffering at the hands of forgotten beasts and the like.

Work continues on developing some more ideas to make them more unique and game changing.  I'd like to make sure that (aside from water) the race changes the fundamental playstyle of DF.  This is a big thing, so I'm constantly revising the system.  Right now, I'm doing a rough implementation of a custom planting system, where I allow a reaction to be done at the kelp farm, and it starts a timer.  That timer, on expiration creates a job item tool, which immediately queues a job (automatic setting) at the kelp farm to "harvest" it.  This produces the kelp, and based on skill, produces different amounts of kelp (not yet implemented).  This is similar to what I imagine coral production to be like. 

This brought me to a second thing that I want to do.  I want to have a few jobs that are "busy work", or just jobs that grant slight, small bonuses, but are easily started and stopped.  Kinda like something for your new wave of idiots to do while you decide where best to put them.  Or something that keeps them from developing the social network that kills your fortress in a tantrum spiral.  Similar to the prayer system of the dwarves, where there's a job you can just pop on repeat, and with a manger keep a dwarf busy forever, I was thinking about a building that would allow for a meditation, or a contact-the-deep kinda magical connection.  This would (very occasionally) produce "visions" (bonuses to skills), "oracles" (predictions of things coming, like the gnome "ask a bird") and/or gifts (materials/coral/shell).  It would be a one tile workshop and could have the job on repeat.  A distance goal for that workshop would be to tie it into the faith system, and make each one dependent on the score of each diety.

Speaking of which, I've started fleshing out a system whereby the naga can increase their progression (similar to, and using, the system for classes developed by Roses) in each god's favor.  This would be done using achievements of a sort (crafts out of coral for nautilus, for example), and would increase the reactions available at each temple.  Nautilus will be easy, viper and salamander medium, and lamia hard.  This will make a progression system that ensures something to do even after everyone is all kitted out in candy and legendary in all skills.  I'm working on rewards, but this is a goal of mine, something that I want to make just for the purpose of seeing if the community would respond well to a long-term goal system for the fort.

I've added sharks to the list of possible pets, as I am very pleased with the idea of forcing invaders into a pit of sharks, just for fun.  I haven't gotten the eyestalks to work correctly, and I'm having issues with the interaction for head-growing on the hydraling.  The eryops are pleasantly filling their role as pack animals, but have a very weak bite, which is unfortunate.  The spitting cobras have actually crashed my game when embarking, so I need to investigate there, and the salamanders are fun to play with.  Sadly, I can't get them to spawn as pack animals.  None come with the cart.  I've tried copying all of the relevant tags, but I think I'm missing something, so I'll recheck that. 

Building upgrades are giving me headaches, there's a lua error (can't find building 1), which should be the building that it is called from, so I don't know why that's an error.  Lack of stacktraces make me sad, and make troubleshooting long and arduous.  That said, this error just came up recently, so I know that it is something that I've changed or fixed, so I just need to go back to a previous version and see what I can glean from the difference.  Similarly, I fixed the script that did water generation, but it is slow now, so it takes about a month (ingame months, approximated) to fill an 11x11 room with 3/7 water.  Still toying with that.

Scripting wise, I'm also VERY excited for the features of the new DFhack for 40.xx.  Some of the new things (like the new scripting process for inorganics) that aren't in 34.11 are much easier to code with/for.  I'm learning all of this as I go, having never modded DF before, so having a more robust DFHack API is better on all accounts.  Basically, what I'm saying is that I'm excited for the move to the new version, and am trying to keep my code as compatible as possible with the new version, to avoid delays. 

On the creature/entity front, I'm still having the maddening problem that they don't show up on the neighbors screen.  I've finally got them producing forts where everyone doesn't say "last of their kind", but I can't get (I guess) them to survive worldgen?  Even on a 2 year stop, they still seem to be "broken" to the game.  I've checked legends, and they seem to be just as normal as every other civ, and I've genned with multiple other civs, and also very few.  I've also noticed, to my dismay that they need clothing on both their "torso" (not just chest...) and "tail".  I gave them pants and a shoe for now, but I'll have to figure something out with flavor, because even with removebadthoughts, my first few test forts ended in tantrum spirals due to nudity.  Adding firebreath through a reaction seemed to work just fine, but adding a poison ability didn't, so I'm going to be investigating that.  Also, size doesn't really make much of a difference I've noticed.  Mostly because they are slow on land, which in 34.11 makes them hit slower as well.  Even if the marine-army is in water first, they are about even with dwarves for what they can kill lacking weapons.  I'm happy about this. 

And finally, the discussion about armor. 
I want to keep this simple, considering all the other changes.  While I can see them getting specialized armor (Asian themes of any kind, from japanese to hindu), I think that might be more complexity than needed.  I would rather them focus on the additions of coral and venom to their equipment rather than the type or style.  From this perspective, I'm looking at them as strangers in a strange world.  They know about the other races or cultures, but they are the kings of the ocean.  They tame great white sharks as pets.  They have no need for armor on the ocean floor, and would have evolved as such.  When they expand onto land, however, they encounter creatures that can best them.  Now, they have to adapt, and I think the armor they wear would be re-purposed armor from invaders.  Things they've seen others wear and use on land.  They wouldn't generate their own style yet  (that's my lore explanation for what I think is best for this mod, and that is to keep the armor/weapons as vanilla as possible). 

It seems to be an issue for some though.  I've always considered the scales and the size of the naga to be their best quality.  I think that because of those qualities, armor is really an afterthought for them.  Now, DF doesn't work that way, so I have to include SOMETHING for protection, but I don't think that they would have a different style here from the dwarves or the humans.  Maybe a different type of waist/faulds/greaves to fit with the tail, but I don't think they would stray far from the gauntlet/breastplate style for the rest.  The helm is a definite point of contention.  In WoW and in Hindu mythology, the helm would be absolutely impractical.  Naga in both have items on/over their heads.  Snakes and fins would make a traditional helm impossible to wear.  On the other hand, the D&D Naga, and most of the other naga sources show them with the human head, which would make even more sense to stick with the helms of the (masterwork human civilization) humans.  So either their completely impractical, or they are similar to the breastplate and gauntlet idea, normal.  In this light, I have no current plans to make any specialized armor.  I'll save that for the eastern inspired humans, if Meph implements them there.

Ok, I think that's enough for now.  I'll update again, hopefully with something more substantial, next week.
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snowhusky5

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #85 on: September 14, 2014, 06:56:29 pm »

If clothing is a problem, why use it? :P Considering they come from the oceans, they probably didn't need clothing underwater, just like they didn't need armor.
Better idea: using water covering as clothing (somehow). It could simulate bad thoughts from going out of the water for too long. Plus it would be pretty funny.

Religion system sounds interesting. I assume you have plans for special abilities for 'champions' of each god?

Yay, sharks! You better be able to buy laser cannons from the gnomes and attach them to the sharks  ;D

Have you decided whether they will be half scale or all scale? As someone pointed out a little while back, half scale would imply more magical origins, while full scale would be more natural evolution. They are amphibious despite living in ocean deeps however, so I dunno about natural evolution.
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slay_mithos

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #86 on: September 14, 2014, 07:33:42 pm »

He means that bad thoughts from lack of clothing is the problem.

In old versions of MDF, Meph "solved" it by making all clothes into armours, so that they would not decay, but it still was not really solving anything, and made the whole textile industry very useless.

Anyway, it's nice to know that you are making progresses, all your updates are really making me want to play with it when it will come out.
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snowhusky5

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #87 on: September 14, 2014, 08:51:55 pm »

I mean that he can remove the [CLOTHING] tag from the entity file, so that they will not need or want clothing, if it works that way.
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taldarus

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #88 on: September 17, 2014, 08:12:02 pm »

Novice Race Builder Here-

I have succeeded in building an egg laying & surviving race for the game. There were a couple of tricks that were important however. I thought you said something using the pet tag. More details could help. Or I could just throw you my files. I honestly don't remember, its been so long. I was trying to create a xenomorph race (playable), and got stuck on my inability to edit more than txt files. There is an answer...I just can't remember it. Don't give up!

I am willing to try and help if you want. I love the idea. Although I would encourage a 100% flooded fort. It would be more !Fun!. Obviously it wont work easily, but maybe naga are only interested in HFS. Fire versus water? Who cares about invasions.... industry? lame! Flooding the molten core of the world, oh yes!
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snowhusky5

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #89 on: September 17, 2014, 11:32:33 pm »

The files would probably help Eko, since I'm not sure if he ever got 'real' egg laying to work (as opposed to fake egg laying using a workshop reaction or something)

The problem with a 4/7 and above flooded fort is that creatures can't path through it. It would require edits to the exe, as far as I know, which is a bit more complicated than making race files. Also it would make invasion defense even more trivial than it already is when you have a single bridge+lever combo.
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