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Author Topic: Initial Naga discussion  (Read 26366 times)

LMeire

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2014, 10:33:00 pm »

Random ideas I've had since I started reading yesterday:

You mentioned having a building that "pulsed" water outward to fill the fort with, what about a building that does the opposite? Draining 7/7 tiles to 3/7 in equally timed pulses.

"Orochi" a rare, alcohol-dependent naga caste with multiple heads- would benefit the most from any bite-attack boosts but be far more likely to suffer a fatal head-shot.

"Wadjet" a spitting cobra with bat wings, used as a guard animal.

A workshop that isn't built in water, but rather above it; can run reactions that drop harmful contaminants into the water below so that it can be washed over invaders.

"Hagmander" a salamander pet that can fire a slime "web" that stuns creatures but wears away into oblivion the instant after it hits the ground. (Preventing them from making traps more OP then they already are.)
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Boltgun

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2014, 03:16:30 am »

This look so nice so far, no one made a good mod that uses water to a good extent.

With small buildings that drains water into 3/7, you could easily make amphibious forts. Or better, if we can binpatch df to let citizens go in water that will make a truely unique race, do dfhack allow to apply a binpatch trough LUA ?
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Eko

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2014, 07:45:44 am »

Wow!  Lost of replies! 

I'll try to answer a few before work, and get more detailed when I get home.

Meph:  yeah, little far into Japanese culture.  I am serious about the naginata being a naga-ish weapon, but I see them using armor differently from others.  I think ceremony is prime among them, using things like masks and charms (kobold's necklaces) and items like that.  This dovetails into a more advanced discussion for when I get home.  I'll post creature RAWs and start a discussion on scale versus skin and other fun stuff.

Slay_mithos:
Great ideas on the trident and the armor.  Again, really not something I've spent any time with so far, so I'll make sure to add that to the list. 
(2nd post)
As meph said, I used the term encrust to denote adding to the weapon, not decorating.  It would be very cool, however, if you could add syndromes to a gem and have it attach to the item when encrusted. 

Snowhusky5
The rune system is exactly what I plan on doing for the coral infusions. 
I do plan on having interactions for speed in water.  Slow on dry land is an idea, but I'm not sure how practical that will be.  Consider the amount of time you have on land during embark before a reasonable first level can be made.  Making them slower than normal during that time might be a turn-off for some.  I'll have to play test it. 
The door is actually the very first idea I had after I found the water offsets.  I was thinking of calling it a "membrane".  Problem is, I can't make it creature-permeable and not water permeable.  Still working on that part of the design.  I think the other ideas here are good ones.  Make levels 2 floors deep, and out your stairs on the top level, everything else submerged.  I'll put up a few screenshots of ideas I've been working on next week.

Baffler - the water should only ever reach 3/7 (pathable), thanks to the magic of dfhack. 

LMeire- great ideas! 
Loving the reverse water one!  That would greatly help fps I think. 
Orochi sounds fun, something I'll consider after the rest comes together.
Wadjet is another great addition, I've been struggling to add good livestock/animals.  Thanks!
I have a love/hate with the contaminants idea.  Great idea for tactics/strategy, but just thinking about the code for that...  We'll see.  If it's easy, I'll consider it.  If not, I have a lore reason against it. 
Hagmander is another good animal idea.  I'll have to think about that interaction. 

Boltgun - this is a big topic, and I'd be happy to discuss patching the race to enter water, but it isn't easy.  Much easier is the 3/7 compromise, and although there is a binpatch.lua file, it calls the c++ native code for the actual heavy lifting.  Something else I'll put a little more detail into tonight, after work.

Thanks everyone for the comments
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Meph

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2014, 10:50:45 am »

Quote
I have a love/hate with the contaminants idea.

I tried a lot with contaminants when I was doing creep tumors for zergs/insects. Its not good, you can't untrain your civ to clean them, or clean themselves when covered, in water with flow they would spam everything full, and they hurt FPS.

Better make a electricity-simulating interaction, if you want something that works in bodies of water. Workshop in water (or naga mage) target one enemy with an interaction, adding some stunning and pain and a flash-file that looks like some sparks/shock, but only work IN_WATER, and add a second interaction that the enemy can do: Affect any creature in line of sight with the same thing, but only if they are also IN_WATER, which stuns them and adds the interaction to give it to everything they can see, again, only IN_WATER.

Your units should be immune to it of course. It can simulate a body of water being electrified (is that a word?) quite well, with 2 possible downsides:
1. If there are corners/zlevels that people cant look around/at, the transmission of interactions will stop.
2. If there are two bodies of water next to each other, but not connected, with line of sight, the interaction might jump over to any creature in it thats being see by other targets.

You should also have a word with Roses. He has a temperature-changing script that I asked him about a year ago (it at least feels that long, probably 5-6 months ^^) and I wanted to make a heater/freezer with it. A 1-tile workshop that has 7 interactions: Heat/Freeze X tiles above, below, north, south, east, west, every-direction and changes the temperature to either make ice, for constructions and traps, or boil it, to get rid of water and maybe do some heat damage.

You could build it on Z-level X and have a body of water on Z-level X+1 or X-1 that is affected by it, similar to the magma/water-trap I use in the magma/water wells atm.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 10:52:17 am by Meph »
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Eko

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2014, 04:10:48 pm »

Home -

I had mentioned earlier that I have had problems with my creature and entity files.  I can't get a world to gen with my creature and entity raws.  I had brushed aside the problem for a few days while focusing on building and reaction raws, but yesterday I spent a few hours working through the raws to try and get a better sense of what might be causing issues.  I came up with the following two files. 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
- Entity

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
- Creature

I will answer any and all questions on these.

I'm not sure if these posts have a limit, I guess I'll see.  I want to go into detail about some of the things I said I would go into in my previous post. 
First - Scale/Skin
This is a difficult decision for me to make.  I love the traditional idea of the hindu/thai snake/human hybrid.  The problem is, most of these descriptions are either open to interpretation, or outright confusing and contradictory.  Greek myth makes them either human or snake, mostly human.  Current cultural paradigms, from WoW to Guild Wars to HOMM, these creatures are ALL scale.  Naga siren from DotA is an exception, and I suppose the witches from WoW are as well.  Still, my predicament is that I don't know which "style" to choose from.  You can see in the above raws, I went straight for the current stuff (all scale), because I had the idea back then of "upgrading" their skin (shedding it and magically growing -say- bronze infused skin) from metals.  As their armor.  I'm not sure if I want to go in that direction anymore, I'm getting kinda bogged down in tons of dfhack scripts at the moment, and its cramping my progress with the other things.  So, I've backed down from that idea, but I still haven't added in skin.  I'm not sure if I really want to.  Regardless, if you search for nagas online, you'll see a bunch of interpretations of different styles.  I still see VERY few wearing armor, and the ones that are are in full scale.  Still, no helmets, and nothing below arms length in their torso.  I was thinking maybe faulds (steel armor, european, kinda like a metal skirt), and use that for pants.  With a full breastplate or full plate, that would fit, historically, but it still wouldn't cover the entire tail. 
As you can see, this is something I'm still struggling with, and something I also feel is very core to their identity, so something I want to get right.

Second thing I promised some more depth into was the pathing problems caused by water.  Finding the offsets for building/placing buildings was easy, mostly due to feedback.  There was a good way to not only tell if it was okay, but also if it failed.  I could also initiate the code anytime I wanted to.  Neither of these things are true for pathfinding.  I'd need a function pointer or something for the unit or job in order to create a situation where I could follow the code well enough to find that particular offset.  I was also warned the other day that I shouldn't be disassembling the exe without Toady's approval.  I need to ask for that before I publish this stuff.  That all said, I think it is the natural, and FPS saving way to do it, so it is something that I will add to my (LONG) list of future enhancements. 

Last, I'd like to say that the electricity thing is something I'd like to work on, but in my mind it would only be a single shock, kinda like a chain-lightning that would do extra damage if in water, but chain to nearby enemies up to a limit.  I'll look into the temperature thing, that sounds like a lot of fun, but that is definitely an extra that I will focus on during the polish phase.

Thanks everyone!  I'm having so much fun with this!

Off to write more reactions, then I leave for the weekend, and I'll post up more on monday.   
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snowhusky5

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2014, 05:22:13 pm »

My two cents about the scale/skin problem: It would make more sense to have only the tails be scaly, if that's possible, both because that is how I imagine them to be, and because having natural armor on their tails would be beneficial in combat, since it wouldn't leave such a great open spot to attack. The upper bodies could either be skin, or a lighter sort of scale, more flexible and weaker than the ones on their tails. It could also be that different castes have different scales.

About the slower-on-land thing, it could be that most castes are slower, but one or two are normal speed, and act as woodchoppers, hunters, etc. Or they could only be slow on hard things like un-muddy stone, ice, etc and normal speed on sand and dirt.

I'm glad to see you're having fun with all this :P
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 05:26:24 pm by snowhusky5 »
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Meph

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2014, 05:48:48 pm »

Quote
[TRANSLATION:FOOCCUBUS]
Do you want a custom language? There are generators for thatand real-life languages  floating around . If you know more or less how they sound, I can make a language file for you. Just type a few words down that sounds like naga-names.

Your entity file is missing quite a few nobles.

I would advise against COMMON and/or UNCOMMON/RARE on permitted items, because sometimes your civ might spawn without items, and players will report it as a bug. "I cant make item X, the mod is buggy...". Doesnt matter if you add it to the manual, those reports will pop up.

I saw you have REGIONAL_FORCE instead of a pantheon of gods, so they pray to water and volcanoes and the ocean... but one of your nobles is called "Prophet of the Gods", which indicates a pantheon instead. Either one is fine, but not both.

Your creature file has EVIL in it, which makes the civ hard to spawn in worldgen, as they only initially settle on evil territories. Maybe thats the source of your worldgen issues (?).

Bodysize is 70000. That translates roughly to 70kg average (yes, I know its volume, but still), which is equal to humans. Shouldnt they be a bit heavier? After all a thick trunklike tail that goes on for a 1-2 meters is heavier than a pair of legs. If they look something like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
then they certainly have a higher body volume/weight than 70000.

Do you want a cover picture in the style of the other races?

Is Myrmiion a typo? The single form of Myrmidons should be Myrmidon, no? And... Ant people? :P Its in this line: [CASTE_PROFESSION_NAME:STANDARD:Myrmiion:Myrmidons]

I would go all scale for body tissues. Will there be any scale-shedding? It could be done that children that grow up slowly shed scales, which produces a scale item that can be used for reactions. On the other hand it would be weird, a bit like cannibalism, and the shedded scale is dead, thin and brittle... so mh... no a good idea. But maybe a pet that regularily sheds its skin, and grows larger and larger over thousands of years, from tiny animal to colossal size, which leaves scales for armor/decorations every few months.

I would make Naga normal speed on land, maybe 90%... and 150% in water. It gives a nice incentive to make use of water ways. I think a good fortress design would be to dig open 2 levels, with raised platforms for workshops (dry, if you cant dfhack fix their behaviour in water), and ramps that lead to the corridors that are partly flooded.

Quote
I'm glad to see you're having fun with all this :P
I want to second this. :)

Quote
I was also warned the other day that I shouldn't be disassembling the exe without Toady's approval.
I never heard about that... after all, thats what dfhack authors do all the time, especially Quietust. His fixes often find their way into Toadys official releases. Cant hurt to ask though. One thing I hope is that its not too complicated to port to DF40.x. If you write highly specialised stuff, you might have to redo parts of it.

One thing about the armor: If you make barely any armor available to them, then they will simply equip armor from killed invaders. Using a higher bodysize (as I suggested above) would make invader gear "small armor", which cant be used. That way your Naga will wear only their special naga gear. Dfhack allows to change body tissues of I am not wrong, so you could make different scale upgrade for Naga, so that they have natural armor, or encrust their own bodies with gems.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 06:06:10 pm by Meph »
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slay_mithos

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2014, 06:27:53 pm »

For the disasembling thing, it depends on where in the world you are (legally speaking).

In the USA, it's strickly forbidden to do any reverse engineering (and products that result from it are also banned), while in the EU, it is OK as long as you don't breach the normal copyright laws.

All in all, DFHack, among other things, was made through studying the client (and hacking into it), so if DFHack is ok, then your approach should be too.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 06:29:25 pm by slay_mithos »
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Meph

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2014, 06:58:34 pm »

PS: Pets that fish can be done, if thats something you are interested in. Just add NATURAL_SKILL:FISH:1 to any pet with grasp body parts.
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Eko

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2014, 07:38:58 pm »

Ok, GREAT information here.

Taking a break from the reaction writing for a bit of a response.

I really want to make the tails be a tough, thick natural armor, and one that would make a tail attack at least dangerous.  I'm still deciding about the top half, but I'm more open to skin/human torsos than I was before.  It would make the scale material upgrades that much more important for balance, and (more importantly) not unbalancing.

The different speed things are tough.  I want to save that for post-release goodies, and I am not going to focus on it until then.  It may be a big thing that helps with flavor, but I want to do it right, so that means investing time.  Time that would be better spent now on getting the goods out for testing.

Custom Languages - Maybe, but that's another thing I'll think about and focus on later.  I'm thinking gaelic sounding words, with a lisp and heavy 's' attached to them.  Like the stereotypical snake voice talking in irish.  That's my vision of Naga speech.  I'll get some words out after alpha release.  I'll probably need a poke/reminder of this post when that happens, but still, not something I'll care about until then.  (I looked at the entity files for succubi and gnomes primarily for ideas/raw hints, and I think they sound more like infernal demons than cute gnomes, hence the raw tag that I put there). 
I'm missing nobles because I haven't thought about them much at all.  Want to get the rest working, then I'll deal with that.  I had three or four written up, but I thought they might be causing errors, so I replaced them with the defaults just to eliminate potential issues.

I'll replace all common/rare tags.  I had no idea they had that much influence in the game.

Regional_force was just me playing around.  I won't have a noble that's a prophet of the gods, but I may have a high-shaman like noble, and I think a singular god might be fine for that.  I see your point about mono/poly theism, and I'll consider that for later.  (a lot to think about when creating one of these, huh...)

They are evil.  Very evil.  I think I was almost too soft on their ethics.  Still, changing to good doesn't seem to be much better, still got 10 rejections in a row when genning a diverse world (all civs checked, only naga available for civ), so it doesn't seem like that's the main culprit. 

I was thinking that the females would be human sized.  The myrmidons are huge, and I have 90000 for them, which I thought was pretty big, but I'm reading numbers now, and I have NO CLUE how to equate stuff.  I'll fiddle with those numbers.  You're right, they do seem small now that you mention it...  Maybe 100000 for females, and 150000 for myrms.  How much of an effect on combat does size have?  I know it has some, but now I'm remembering that you have frost giants that are...  giant...  so would 150000 be too much of a combat boost?  Would it make starting sieges trivial?  That's certainly something I want to avoid.

I would love a cover picture, but lets really save that for closer to release.  I want to get features and an actual playable race done first, then we can talk presentation. 

Yes, that's a silly typo of mine, thanks for catching it. 

Scale shedding is something I've been considering, but I don't really want to make it a thing.  You're right on your point, that the leftover scales are basically useless (weak and dead, so nothing can really be made out of them).  Also, to the other point, the cannibalism thing, that's not an issue.  I'll try and make that point in whatever way I can with reading materials, but this is survival of the fittest in the most extreme sense.  If killing another civ member makes the naga expedition stronger?  Do it, and don't think twice.  Also, they're proud of their scales.  It would be a sign of respect to put scales of a slain naga to use.  In this way, I think there's something to what you're saying, but not with shedding.  Maybe with a pet, hydras can have scales.  I'll work with that for now.

The size will solve the small armor thing.  I'm loving the encrusting their bodies thing.  We'll see if we can put that in later.  Yes, I want the upgrades to work, but that's after alpha.

I'll try to contact toady today.  Just to let him know what I'm doing.  I'll let everyone know as soon as I hear back.

The fisher pet is a great idea.  I'll put something together for that.  Probably a fish-human hybrid thing enslaved by the naga whose eternal service gathering their kindred animals is amusing to their overlords.  Yes, I like that idea.
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ferals

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #40 on: September 04, 2014, 09:07:50 pm »

Well how about making siren caste /if there is one ofc, havent really readed everything/ could make their voice be used as magic source? I know charming and such things are succ domain, but making enemies drowzy for example or giving extra good thoughts to nagas that talk with them?
Also i would as player like to see nagas make use of shells and other sea's offerings better than other races (just like dwarves with stone).
Give unhappy thoughts when water is frozen (well i think its ok since its their theme)?
Also if anybody played DotA, there is hero called Gorgon, maybe it would make good archer caste?
Also going this way, would it be possible to make their hair to be snake-like?/that's for Gorgon caste idea/
Also since they have something in common with snakes (well if these are fish-focused naga race, maybe make caste that has snake tail instead of fish one and be more of liar/toxicologist) let them have special kinds of poisons for their trap instead of fire and stone-focused ones?

i hope all i wrote is understandable enough since its kinda late here and i've just got some ideas to share with you ;)
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snowhusky5

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #41 on: September 04, 2014, 10:04:59 pm »

Encrusting their own bodies with gems/etc sounds rather interesting lol. Maybe the nobles would request it along with furniture and mandates? Or being encrusted with metals would work as a sort of armor that increases their weight and decreases speed (using a similar system to the Kobold's tattoos but permanent, or pet armoring?)

If you want them to be big but not OP, you could, again, make them a bit slower on land, or vulnerable in some other way. Maybe making the tail have multiple 'segments' which are really just all part of the same tail would decrease the 'effective size' compared to their 'actual size'? Or it would at least provide for some locomotion if their tail is 'broken?' Or being able to be immobilized rather easily (if you can pierce the tail scales) could be their weakness? I dunno. This is certainly gonna be a very unique race, even more so than some of the other ones. They are going to be the first non-humanoid playable race though, which is kinda cool.
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LMeire

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #42 on: September 04, 2014, 11:35:57 pm »

Are Nagas still going to be item thieves like kobolds? If not, what team are they on by default?
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Meph

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2014, 11:55:44 pm »

Savage. Together with werewolves, centauren and kobolds.
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Boltgun

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Re: Initial Naga discussion
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2014, 03:02:01 am »

I believe I had succubi in worlds without biomes so unless I missed one square of evil, their alignment does not make them harder to spawn.

In fact it seems to make it easier since they can expand in biomes 'good' races cannot.
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