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[jipehog]

Every rules can be abused and it is a constant battle to find consensus on what is fair, and strict laws that leave no place for interpretation just open another venue for abuse.

I disagree profoundly. An exact, well-defined law is infinitely preferable.

I suspect that we are talking about different things, this being 'abusive policing' thread and you starting with British vagrancy law likely have different framing of what we talking about than I, who do not live in USA nor care about USA hot button issues that why I used very general vague terms applying things that affect me personally here.

I certainly don't see any contradiction between a well-defined law with clear definitions and wording, and leaving room for interpretation. The simple fact is that all laws have loopholes and it is impossible to account for any situation in life, often attempting todo so only create a convoluted system no one but lawyers can hope to comprehend which open space for abuse e.g. it is often joked that us traffic laws are so convoluted that it is impossible not to cross some, iirc this is why you put stricter limits on traffic stop rational, similarly in taxes iirc USA recently-ish had simplified its tax laws arguing that it did little good beside pad tax break lawyers pockets.

Overall IMO community policing should be about talking not spewing some 10 deep city ordinance. And on the topic of the need of "riff raff" laws I would remind that there are several sides to each situation and that lawyering open venue for abuse not just on the police side. Who didn't have assholes in the neighborhood who pissed on everyone with police left impotent todo anything about it.

[TD1]

What does affect you?

[EuchreJack]

Dude, American laws were based on British laws.
We're both the same sort of pricks in the legal world.

The rest of Europe (and Louisiana) has a completely different way of doing things. Which is actually semi-relevant to this discussion.

Arguably, you're both wrong. The law should neither be too strict nor too loose. What it should be is clear, both in what it does and in what exceptions exist. It also needs to be simple to be enforceable. Cops don't like complicated cases, so they don't pursue them.

[EuchreJack]

Back on topic...

So the reporter that was arrested for being too loud at a press conference and refusing to leave... was a bit different than advertised.

“My office has reviewed the relevant video and documentary evidence and is dismissing the charges against Evan Lambert as unsupported by sufficient evidence,” Yost said in a press release. “While journalists could conceivably be subject to criminal charges for trespassing in some situations, this incident is not one of them. The reporter was lawfully present at a press conference called by the Governor of the state. His conduct was consistent with the purpose of the event and his role as a reporter.”

And some new footage here.

Turns out this is relevant!

[Duuvian]

Back stabs all around!

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/28/us/chicago-mayoral-election-lightfoot-vallas.html
Mayor Lori Lightfoot of Chicago Loses Her Bid for Re-election

The result was a resounding defeat that reflected widespread dissatisfaction from voters over her handling of crime. Challengers to her political left and right advanced to a runoff.

Ironically, remember this?
https://dailycaller.com/2023/02/28/lori-lightfoot-denounces-defund-the-police-chicago-mayor-race/
‘They Want To Cut Your Police’: Lori Lightfoot Denounces ‘Defund The Police’ In Last-Ditch Effort To Woo Black Voters

Yet

https://abc7chicago.com/chicago-mayor-lori-lightfoot-fraternal-order-of-police-teachers-union/10668795/
Community groups, police union, others give Lightfoot low marks after 2 years; protest held

Mayor Lightfoot says Chicago FOP vote of no confidence is 'badge of honor'

Quite the faustian bargain

Related:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/28/nyregion/eric-adams-religion-church.html
Adams, Discussing Faith, Dismisses Idea of Separating Church and State

[EuchreJack]

For fun, read up on Westport, Connecticut

Here are some fun facts:
Westport is among the most affluent communities in the United States. In July 2008, Westport was named the fifth top-earning city in the US, with a median family income of $193,540 and median home price of $1,200,000.[34] In 2018, data from the American Community Survey revealed that Westport was the 9th wealthiest city in the United States.

According to a publication by the 2010 Census,[22] Westport has a total area of 33.45 square miles (86.6 km2) of which 19.96 square miles (51.7 km2) (59.67%) is land with the remaining area of 13.49 square miles (34.9 km2) (40.20%) water.

The 2010 US Census counted the total number of households in Westport being 9,573 of which 7,233 (75.6%) were family households.[32] The population density was 1,322.2 inhabitants per square mile (510.5/km2). There were 10,065 housing units at an average density of 503.0 per square mile (194.2/km2).

According to the 2010 Census, the population of Westport was 92.6% White, 4.0% Asian, 1.2% Black or African American, and 0.1% American Indian. Individuals from other races made up 0.6% of Westport's population while individuals from two or more races made up 1.6%.[33] In addition, Latinos of any race made up 3.5% of Westport's population. About 29.8% of Westport residents were younger than age 18 as of 2010; higher than the U.S. average of 24%.

...

Westport, like Connecticut as a whole, is heavily Democratic. Hillary Rodham Clinton outscored Donald J. Trump by 42 points in 2016. Joe Biden outscored Donald J. Trump by more than 50 points in 2020, marking the best performance for a Democratic presidential nominee in the town in over 60 years.[37]

Westport was one of five towns in Connecticut that backed former Governor John Kasich over Donald J. Trump in the 2016 Republican presidential primary. Kasich received 1,098 votes (46.19 percent) ahead of Trump who garnered 1,053 votes (44.30 percent). U.S. Senator Ted Cruz of Texas finished third with 165 votes (6.94 percent).[38]

...

As of 2020, the Westport Police Department has a full-time complement of 64 sworn police officers that serve the Town of Westport.[41] This department is one of few Police Departments in the country to invest in electric and hybrid fleets.

 

That's 2 cops per square mile, including the water!

It's 3 cops per square mile if you only count the land that the cops can actually stand on!

[nenjin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9soGK2qPZBQ

Cops award the Purple Heart to an officer who shot an unarmed man for eating an anti-anxiety pill. It was awarded four days before the family filed a wrongful death suit. The sherriff who awarded him the medal refuses to discuss the grounds on which it was awarded to the officer. The officer sustained minor scrapes he caused to himself by tackling and subduing the man before he shot him.

Pretty stupid story all around. The victim goes to school with his mom and her boyfriend to pick up a kid, gets out of the car, takes a walk. Comes back, mistakenly tries to get into the wrong car. Realizes his error, apologizes, gets out and leaves and returns to the right vehicle. Some fucking "good citizen" calls the cops to respond to a "suspicious person." Cops find him in his own vehicle, pull him out and question him. He tells police he doesn't have a weapon, turns out his pockets, says he's been abused by law enforcement before and is nervous speaking to police. Takes an anti-anxiety med out of his pocket. The cops see it, question him, he answers, then they tackle him and shoot him 3 times at point blank range while he's on the ground.

With "heroes" like these, who needs actual criminals.

[jipehog]

Pretty stupid story all around.

True.

The cops see it, question him, he answers, then they tackle him and shoot him 3 times at point blank range while he's on the ground.

but you are exaggerating a bit, the omniscient narration is a bit prejudiced here. Let me try to illustrate it by painting the same situation differently:

A woman picking her kids in the school parking lot freaked out after unknown middle-age man enter her car. According to the longer video the perp doesn't seem like the social type that would apologize and put you at ease, he even said he was screaming at her thinking she was his mom. I can imagine what she had going through her head in those moments, for all she knew he was a drug addict trying to find something to pay for his habit

Soon after cops were dispatched to a 'suspicious' man in the parking lot of the middle school, said to be trying to enter several vehicles, became aggressive and  possibly 'on something'. When approached he seemed very anxious and eluded to being in altercations with cops before screaming at him stop resisting.

After the cop took his story and moved to collaborate, in a span of 10 seconds: he was asked if he under the influence of anything, asked for his ID (started fidgeting in his pockets), asked immediately if he has any weapons (said he don't think so) pulled a pocket knife and turned away from the cop toward inside of the car (unintentionally obstructing their field of view of what he does) the cop looked in and saw him stick something in his mouth, and then the struggle ensued. During the struggle the guy end up on top the cop for a several seconds. During which the cop sustained several injuries to his face.

[EuchreJack]

the cop looked in and saw him stick something in his mouth, and then the struggle ensued and then the cop hauled him out of the vehicle because he put something in his fucking mouth. During the struggle the guy end up on top the cop for a several seconds. During which the cop sustained several injuries to his face.

@jipehog: In what world do you think it's ok for a cop to haul you out of your car because you popped a fucking pill in front of them?

The cop started it and the cop ended it by killing him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9soGK2qPZBQ

Cops award the Purple Heart to an officer who shot an unarmed man for eating an anti-anxiety pill. It was awarded four days before the family filed a wrongful death suit. The sherriff who awarded him the medal refuses to discuss the grounds on which it was awarded to the officer. The officer sustained minor scrapes he caused to himself by tackling and subduing the man before he shot him.

Pretty stupid story all around. The victim goes to school with his mom and her boyfriend to pick up a kid, gets out of the car, takes a walk. Comes back, mistakenly tries to get into the wrong car. Realizes his error, apologizes, gets out and leaves and returns to the right vehicle. Some fucking "good citizen" calls the cops to respond to a "suspicious person." Cops find him in his own vehicle, pull him out and question him. He tells police he doesn't have a weapon, turns out his pockets, says he's been abused by law enforcement before and is nervous speaking to police. Takes an anti-anxiety med out of his pocket. The cops see it, question him, he answers, then they tackle him and shoot him 3 times at point blank range while he's on the ground.

With "heroes" like these, who needs actual criminals.

Working as intended

I feel it worth mentioning that President Biden could do something today, without consulting Congress. He could pass new policy for all police agencies that receive federal funds, then strip funding from any police agencies that fail to comply.
But the system is working as intended.

Safety Tip: When being questioned by law enforcement, lock your door and roll down the window a crack.  Do NOT open the door, if you have prior bad history with law enforcement.
You also should never tell a cop that you have bad history with cops. Never admit weakness to a potential predator.
Most of these gross police misconduct stories start with the person saying that they had prior bad experience with cops.

It's better to see a lawyer in the morning in jail than have your family see your body in the morgue.

[jipehog]

I don't know if it is ok but it certainly a far cry from previous description.

[EuchreJack]

I don't know if it is ok but it certainly a far cry from previous description.

You don't know?

The answer is "No, it not appropriate for a cop to haul someone out of a vehicle for putting something in their mouth"

[scriver]

No, it certainly is okay if they appear to be trying to hide something in their mouth.

[EuchreJack]

No, it certainly is okay if they appear to be trying to hide something in their mouth.

Because I am always hiding a gun in my mouth...

[scriver]

If you're going to be a fool then what's the point responding to your arguments?

[Frumple]

What the hell else could warrant violently dragging someone out of a car?