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Author Topic: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice  (Read 446255 times)

nenjin

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4125 on: April 29, 2021, 11:48:19 am »

Point in fact, cops make the determination what action to take. If every situation involves possible unknown danger, and a cop's judgment is to open fire without all the facts or without establishing the situation, then it's the judgment of cops that is at fault.

We cannot control the criminal element. By their very definition we can't control their actions. But we CAN control the actions of police officers we HIRE AND TRAIN AND REVIEW. THAT is what's not happening here; we're acting as if cops are wild animals that can't be controlled and we're just at the mercy of their (flawed) judgment. That is fucking bullshit. Criminals will always commit crimes. Do we also just then accept that people we pay with public money will execute people according to their own flawed judgment, and we as a society should both not say anything about it AND retain them as police officers?

That's the psychotic shit no one in this thread can understand. Bumber likes to talk about consequences for everyone except police officers, like they become sacred beings as soon as they put on the badge and can only be judged by other sacred beings.

The only other occupation that gets the instantaneous presumption of correctness are doctors, and they train far longer than cops at their job, their job is more skilled, costs them more money....oh, and they don't extrajudicially decide to kill people.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 01:33:49 pm by nenjin »
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Vector

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4126 on: April 29, 2021, 12:03:37 pm »

I guess I would also say professors in their domain of expertise, but again: years of training at low wages + constantly being put through the meat grinder by other professors.
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nenjin

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4127 on: April 29, 2021, 01:32:53 pm »

And also the general erosion of trust and confidence in academia, mostly driven by the know-nothings on the right.
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When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
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TD1

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4128 on: April 29, 2021, 05:15:55 pm »

The non-stated assumption being that a huge, general group of people are know-nothings?
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hector13

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4129 on: April 29, 2021, 05:25:21 pm »

The non-stated assumption being that a huge, general group of people are know-nothings?

I think nenjin was referring to a very specific brand of conservative.
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Frumple

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4130 on: April 29, 2021, 05:45:31 pm »

One with a history in the US, in particular. It's not a general statement, per se.
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nenjin

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4131 on: April 29, 2021, 06:34:20 pm »

Yes, the segment of the Right that barely completed high school and say things like "What do scientists really know anyways."
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When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
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Always spaghetti, never forghetti

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4133 on: April 29, 2021, 08:53:16 pm »

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Rolan7

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4135 on: April 30, 2021, 12:23:45 am »

No justice?  No peace.
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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4136 on: April 30, 2021, 01:19:17 am »

The women they had speak for that were really something.
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Bumber

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4137 on: May 02, 2021, 09:36:20 pm »

Good job on removing the context... again ("an uncertain circumstance of possible danger").  If it is a clear case of existent danger then self-defense applies.  Training should distinguish a vague and possible threat from a distinct and verified one. Lethal force is an extreme measure and needs suitably strong justification.

Are you suggesting that someone should give another person (who they know to have a gun) the time to raise a firearm towards them and take aim before lethal force can be used? If you do that when the other person intends to shoot you, you're the one who's going to end up dead.

Ya know, when someone has their arms raised in the air and is being held at gunpoint I think it's fair enough to calll it 'captured'. (giggles)  Maybe you could have also bolded the 'generally'...  Besides we're only discussing premeditation because of your insistence that the cop did abolutely nothing wrong.  But to go on with citing that wikipedia page the essence of it is:

No. The kid was in the process of raising his arms when the officer began to pull the trigger. If they'd been up for more than a fraction of a second to verify his surrender, then that would meet a valid definition of capture.

I didn't say that the cop did absolutely nothing wrong. You're putting words in my mouth. In fact I said, "Maybe the officer should have ordered him to stop and face the fence, instead."

However, the officer is not criminally liable for not doing so.

Strange that you say
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No analysis of the circumstances that lead the cop to shoot.
Because that is exactly the discussion.  What was it about the kid's actions that led to the cop arbitrarily depriving them of their life?

Had you given thought to it before I entered the discussion?

1. Hanging out with a gang member at 2am instead of being in bed?
2. Watching said gang member shoot at a car and deciding to stick around?
3. Accepting a gun from a gang member?
4. Running from the police with a gun in hand?
5. Dropping the gun out of sight?

(I'm loathe to suggest the kid dropped the gun out of sight in an attempt to avoid being charged with firearm possession, but since people do stuff arbitrarily, y'know.)

It is indeed a tragedy, but that doesn't stop it being a gross mistake: on the part of the cop (and the judicial system) on my take; or premeditated murder on yours.

That 'It was inevitable' just returns us to Vector's unease.

Mistake? Yes. Unlawful negligence? No.

Premeditated?
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Take it up with a legal scholar.

But it wasn't inevitable. A number of actions could have steered things away from it, even before the police arrived.
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

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Bumber

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4138 on: May 02, 2021, 10:00:22 pm »

Also, again: Why does a lone police officer need to be pursuing an armed suspect? Is it not safer to all involved for multiple police officers to operate in a co-ordinated manner to isolate the area the suspect is in, clear civilians out of that area, and work together to bring them in safely and alive, and only open fire when that becomes a clear and immediate threat? This lone ranger bullshit is just making people twitchy and leading to needless deaths. Especially if police training isn't sufficient in the USA that police can't readily distinguish surrender from attacking.

Are you willing to accept hostage taking and the death of other civilians in a few instances where the police decide to wait? Something to consider.

(Fun fact: In some countries  (UK for example), a civilian carrying a weapon with the purpose of self-defence and then using it to kill someone 'in self-defence' is (and I am of the opinion should be) regarded premeditated murder btw. You went out with a weapon with the intent of using it to kill someone, then did so. That's what premeditated murder literally means.).

So there's really no such thing as self-defense in those countries?



Point in fact, cops make the determination what action to take. If every situation involves possible unknown danger, and a cop's judgment is to open fire without all the facts or without establishing the situation, then it's the judgment of cops that is at fault.

Police clearly don't go into every situation with their guns drawn, though. It's when they see someone holding a firearm, or a non-compliant suspect acts in a way that they could be retrieving a firearm, that situations end up needing to be "established" prematurely.

Bumber likes to talk about consequences for everyone except police officers, like they become sacred beings as soon as they put on the badge and can only be judged by other sacred beings.



The only other occupation that gets the instantaneous presumption of correctness are doctors, and they train far longer than cops at their job, their job is more skilled, costs them more money....oh, and they don't extrajudicially decide to kill people.

7,150 healthy people die each year due to medical mistakes. That's more than seven times the number shot by cops, and over one hundred times those unarmed shot by cops. Maybe you'd like to call for them to face justice, too?



I would like to see the bodycam footage showing the police encountering Ruben Roman, who started the shooting that night, and heard what the police were saying. That might clarify what Stillman knew when he started chasing the child... the child with the gun.

https://youtu.be/B5dQpxtJaCs?t=42

Found additional footage, but there's not much to see with regards to Roman. No audio, either.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 10:45:48 pm by Bumber »
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

delphonso

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #4139 on: May 02, 2021, 10:45:35 pm »

7,150 healthy people die each year due to medical mistakes. That's more than seven times the number shot by cops, and over one hundred times those unarmed shot by cops. Maybe you'd like to call for them to face justice, too?

Literally yes, you slug.
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