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[nenjin]

Point in fact, cops make the determination what action to take. If every situation involves possible unknown danger, and a cop's judgment is to open fire without all the facts or without establishing the situation, then it's the judgment of cops that is at fault.

We cannot control the criminal element. By their very definition we can't control their actions. But we CAN control the actions of police officers we HIRE AND TRAIN AND REVIEW. THAT is what's not happening here; we're acting as if cops are wild animals that can't be controlled and we're just at the mercy of their (flawed) judgment. That is fucking bullshit. Criminals will always commit crimes. Do we also just then accept that people we pay with public money will execute people according to their own flawed judgment, and we as a society should both not say anything about it AND retain them as police officers?

That's the psychotic shit no one in this thread can understand. Bumber likes to talk about consequences for everyone except police officers, like they become sacred beings as soon as they put on the badge and can only be judged by other sacred beings.

The only other occupation that gets the instantaneous presumption of correctness are doctors, and they train far longer than cops at their job, their job is more skilled, costs them more money....oh, and they don't extrajudicially decide to kill people.

[Vector]

I guess I would also say professors in their domain of expertise, but again: years of training at low wages + constantly being put through the meat grinder by other professors.

[nenjin]

And also the general erosion of trust and confidence in academia, mostly driven by the know-nothings on the right.

[TD1]

The non-stated assumption being that a huge, general group of people are know-nothings?

[hector13]

The non-stated assumption being that a huge, general group of people are know-nothings?

I think nenjin was referring to a very specific brand of conservative.

[Frumple]

One with a history in the US, in particular. It's not a general statement, per se.

[nenjin]

Yes, the segment of the Right that barely completed high school and say things like "What do scientists really know anyways."

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Excellent reporting on the reactions to the Chauvin verdict

[Superdorf]

Excellent reporting on the reactions to the Chauvin verdict

That was real solid, thanks! I showed it to a couple of my folks.

[delphonso]

Excellent reporting on the reactions to the Chauvin verdict

Damn this is great.

[Rolan7]

No justice?  No peace.

[Vector]

The women they had speak for that were really something.

[Bumber]

Good job on removing the context... again ("an uncertain circumstance of possible danger").  If it is a clear case of existent danger then self-defense applies.  Training should distinguish a vague and possible threat from a distinct and verified one. Lethal force is an extreme measure and needs suitably strong justification.

Are you suggesting that someone should give another person (who they know to have a gun) the time to raise a firearm towards them and take aim before lethal force can be used? If you do that when the other person intends to shoot you, you're the one who's going to end up dead.

Ya know, when someone has their arms raised in the air and is being held at gunpoint I think it's fair enough to calll it 'captured'. (giggles)  Maybe you could have also bolded the 'generally'...  Besides we're only discussing premeditation because of your insistence that the cop did abolutely nothing wrong.  But to go on with citing that wikipedia page the essence of it is:

No. The kid was in the process of raising his arms when the officer began to pull the trigger. If they'd been up for more than a fraction of a second to verify his surrender, then that would meet a valid definition of capture.

I didn't say that the cop did absolutely nothing wrong. You're putting words in my mouth. In fact I said, "Maybe the officer should have ordered him to stop and face the fence, instead."

However, the officer is not criminally liable for not doing so.

Strange that you say

No analysis of the circumstances that lead the cop to shoot.

Because that is exactly the discussion.  What was it about the kid's actions that led to the cop arbitrarily depriving them of their life?

Had you given thought to it before I entered the discussion?

1. Hanging out with a gang member at 2am instead of being in bed?
2. Watching said gang member shoot at a car and deciding to stick around?
3. Accepting a gun from a gang member?
4. Running from the police with a gun in hand?
5. Dropping the gun out of sight?

(I'm loathe to suggest the kid dropped the gun out of sight in an attempt to avoid being charged with firearm possession, but since people do stuff arbitrarily, y'know.)

It is indeed a tragedy, but that doesn't stop it being a gross mistake: on the part of the cop (and the judicial system) on my take; or premeditated murder on yours.

That 'It was inevitable' just returns us to Vector's unease.

Mistake? Yes. Unlawful negligence? No.

Premeditated?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Take it up with a legal scholar.

But it wasn't inevitable. A number of actions could have steered things away from it, even before the police arrived.

[Bumber]

Also, again: Why does a lone police officer need to be pursuing an armed suspect? Is it not safer to all involved for multiple police officers to operate in a co-ordinated manner to isolate the area the suspect is in, clear civilians out of that area, and work together to bring them in safely and alive, and only open fire when that becomes a clear and immediate threat? This lone ranger bullshit is just making people twitchy and leading to needless deaths. Especially if police training isn't sufficient in the USA that police can't readily distinguish surrender from attacking.

Are you willing to accept hostage taking and the death of other civilians in a few instances where the police decide to wait? Something to consider.

(Fun fact: In some countries  (UK for example), a civilian carrying a weapon with the purpose of self-defence and then using it to kill someone 'in self-defence' is (and I am of the opinion should be) regarded premeditated murder btw. You went out with a weapon with the intent of using it to kill someone, then did so. That's what premeditated murder literally means.).

So there's really no such thing as self-defense in those countries?

Point in fact, cops make the determination what action to take. If every situation involves possible unknown danger, and a cop's judgment is to open fire without all the facts or without establishing the situation, then it's the judgment of cops that is at fault.

Police clearly don't go into every situation with their guns drawn, though. It's when they see someone holding a firearm, or a non-compliant suspect acts in a way that they could be retrieving a firearm, that situations end up needing to be "established" prematurely.

Bumber likes to talk about consequences for everyone except police officers, like they become sacred beings as soon as they put on the badge and can only be judged by other sacred beings.

The only other occupation that gets the instantaneous presumption of correctness are doctors, and they train far longer than cops at their job, their job is more skilled, costs them more money....oh, and they don't extrajudicially decide to kill people.

7,150 healthy people die each year due to medical mistakes. That's more than seven times the number shot by cops, and over one hundred times those unarmed shot by cops. Maybe you'd like to call for them to face justice, too?

I would like to see the bodycam footage showing the police encountering Ruben Roman, who started the shooting that night, and heard what the police were saying. That might clarify what Stillman knew when he started chasing the child... the child with the gun.

https://youtu.be/B5dQpxtJaCs?t=42

Found additional footage, but there's not much to see with regards to Roman. No audio, either.

[delphonso]

7,150 healthy people die each year due to medical mistakes. That's more than seven times the number shot by cops, and over one hundred times those unarmed shot by cops. Maybe you'd like to call for them to face justice, too?

Literally yes, you slug.