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Author Topic: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice  (Read 442347 times)

feelotraveller

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3780 on: August 16, 2020, 01:59:39 am »

Aboriginal deaths in custody is an issue not* a statistic. Or to rephrase that as a question: 'Why do so many Indigenous Australians die in custody?'

That the focus so often gets put on what happens in prison is part of the problem.  The relevant part of the problem for this thread is "Abusive Policing" which occurs above and beyond - but in conjuction with - the background social issues (which I agree are very important, as do you and as did the royal commission ...but that part of it is never/rarely mentioned when the royal commission is invoked for some reason).  Another part of 'in custody' that is avoided in this conflation with prison populations are the violences and deaths that occur outside of incarceration but inside of custody, i.e what happens at the watchhouse or in the police vehicle prior to any possible move towards incarceration.  Statistics on that are much harder to come by.


* Or more precisely before and beyond if you want more than a soundbite.


Edit: on the whole statistics bit - why should I understand 'Aborginal deaths in custody' to be 'Aboriginal inmates deaths in custody' rather than the presumed default 'Aboriginal people deaths in custody'?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2020, 02:06:00 am by feelotraveller »
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Reelya

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3782 on: August 17, 2020, 11:49:07 am »

Edit: on the whole statistics bit - why should I understand 'Aborginal deaths in custody' to be 'Aboriginal inmates deaths in custody' rather than the presumed default 'Aboriginal people deaths in custody'?

Why? Because the emphasis causes us to misallocate resources. Politicians spend more time and effort worrying about "padding the cells" so to speak, than they do about the social inequities, because it's the deaths in custody thing that gets on the news. Despite "prison safety" not actually being the problem. You're not going to get sacked because of aboriginal homelessness rates, but if one guy dies in a cell you might, and the easiest thing to do is deal with only the most immediate symptoms and say you'll hold another expensive inquiry into prison conditions.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2020, 11:50:54 am by Reelya »
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Cyroth

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3783 on: August 17, 2020, 12:29:21 pm »

https://twitter.com/spekulation/status/1295169946314391552

Can I have some context to this?
Because from the video it looks like a group of cops just walking down the street. Then a random guy (wearing/using a crutch?) leans in and yells "fucking bitch" in the policewoman face, whereupon she turns around and decks him. By the universal law of "talk shit - get hit" thats kinda the expected outcome, I'd say.

Are there some seconds before or after missing?
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Cyroth

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3785 on: August 17, 2020, 03:20:13 pm »

By universal law I don't mean actual laws, I mean the natural and expected progression of events that'll follow the "talk shit".
You can not get into somebodies face and hurl abuse at them and NOT expect them to deck you, thats just ridiculous. It is one of the 2 or 3 most likely outcomes unless you're dealing with some perfectly zen, pacifist monk or something. Especially in a culture as overly protective of their "personal space" as you US-Americans are. I would have expected the exact same thing to happen no matter where on the world it happened or who the actors in it were.

That is why I asked for context, because I've watched that 10 second clip like 30 times, and no matter how I look it at the only person at fault there is the guy who got shoved by the policewoman for getting into her face and yelling abuse at her. Which in turn doesn't add up to the message of the tweet.

Also I don't think free speech comes into that anywhere.
Thay guy with the crutch wasn't stating his opinion or peacefully attending anything. He got up into a semi-random persons face and yelled insults at her.
That is not making use of freedom of speech, thats verbally assaulting another person.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2020, 03:25:13 pm by Cyroth »
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Rolan7

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3786 on: August 17, 2020, 03:53:13 pm »

"Talk shit get hit" is morality for drunks and children.  It has no hidden deeper value.

In a tense standoff situation, the side that resorts to violence first has demonstrated either insecurity in their beliefs, or a desire for violence.  Adults use our words.

Now, some words are a lot better than others...  Provoking someone with hate speech demonstrates insecurity as well.  It is obviously not a justification for violence in return, because that would be literal anarchy.
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Reelya

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3787 on: August 17, 2020, 05:08:58 pm »

I'll just note that if a cop hits you, that's not abuse of authority, it's just someone hitting you.

The abuse of authority is actually the bit where they don't get in trouble for it, hence the abuse is systematic, not specifically what the individual officers did, despite how they want to frame that as "bad apples".

It's bad apples in the sense that there were bad apples and you still made pies with them and sold them despite having been told they're bad, then you blame the apples when people complain: *shrug* "some apples are bad, what can you do?"
« Last Edit: August 17, 2020, 05:11:45 pm by Reelya »
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Iduno

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3788 on: August 17, 2020, 07:10:41 pm »

Are you trying for the phrase "a bad apple spoils the bunch"? Where bad apples cause rotting to happen faster in other apples, and corrupt police rise through the ranks faster?
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feelotraveller

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3789 on: August 17, 2020, 10:15:14 pm »

Edit: on the whole statistics bit - why should I understand 'Aborginal deaths in custody' to be 'Aboriginal inmates deaths in custody' rather than the presumed default 'Aboriginal people deaths in custody'?

Why? Because the emphasis causes us to misallocate resources. Politicians spend more time and effort worrying about "padding the cells" so to speak, than they do about the social inequities, because it's the deaths in custody thing that gets on the news. Despite "prison safety" not actually being the problem. You're not going to get sacked because of aboriginal homelessness rates, but if one guy dies in a cell you might, and the easiest thing to do is deal with only the most immediate symptoms and say you'll hold another expensive inquiry into prison conditions.

Um, that's deeply illogical.  Such misallocation of resources is guided (or justfied) by the (mis)identification of the salient part of Aborignal deaths in custody being 'Aboriginal inmates deaths in prison'.

If, as is the case, the real problem lies with the disproportionate incarceration rates of Aboriginal people then that's just the right-wing media and politicians grandstanding with the usual 'law and order', 'tough on "crime" ' shmuck.  (And yes there is then the question of the cause of the incarceration rates - and some of that is straight up due to biased policing; I gave some examples a few posts ago.)

From the wikipedia gloss on the Royal Commission (which investigated 99 deaths in custody):
Quote
The Royal Commission reported that Aboriginal people in custody died at about the same rate as non-Aboriginal people in custody, but the rate at which they came into custody was much higher, in particular police custody, so the 99 deaths represent that over-representation.
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Rolan7

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3790 on: August 17, 2020, 10:36:50 pm »

"Talk shit get hit" is morality for drunks and children.  It has no hidden deeper value.

In a tense standoff situation, the side that resorts to violence first has demonstrated either insecurity in their beliefs, or a desire for violence.  Adults use our words.

Now, some words are a lot better than others...  Provoking someone with hate speech demonstrates insecurity as well.  It is obviously not a justification for violence in return, because that would be literal anarchy.
I've been thinking about this thing I wrote, and it's fundamentally about escalation.  The problem with "talk shit get hit" is that it fundamentally escalates a nonviolent situation to a violent one.  The law enforcement Use of Force Continuum is very relevant here.

Law enforcement's ideal goal is to restore peace while remaining as low on that continuum as possible.  For that reason, there are rules about the escalation of force.  The tricky part is that an officer needs to be ready to escalate at a moment's notice, but will rarely actually need to.  Hence... false positives, by which I mean, police brutality.  Being on a hair trigger while, say, having to resolve 99% nonviolent incidents?  I understand.  Redistribute funds to specialists.

The original situation is not that.  There was no surprise involved, it was an established standoff.  The officer has no excuse for escalating the situation to violence from mere words (even hate speech).  Sure she's one individual of many, but that's how systemic problems work.  It's not about the individual, it's about the system.  Most of the officers did their duty in that altercation, but one of them made things worse.

again.

...If "talk shit get hit" was ethical, then what would the correct response to unjust deaths by police be?
Instead we have, to some extent, property damage.  And even that is disavowed by the movement.
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Reelya

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3791 on: August 18, 2020, 12:09:38 am »


Um, that's deeply illogical.  Such misallocation of resources is guided (or justfied) by the (mis)identification of the salient part of Aborignal deaths in custody being 'Aboriginal inmates deaths in prison'.

Let me demostrate the allocation of resources thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission_into_Aboriginal_Deaths_in_Custody#Final_report

Quote
The Commission concluded that the 99 deaths investigated were not due to police violence
...
The Royal Commission reported that Aboriginal people in custody died at about the same rate as non-Aboriginal people in custody
...
A related issue, not investigated by the Commission, is the disproportionately high number of Indigenous Australians who come under some form of custody or who are imprisoned under the law
...
One of the outcomes of the Commission was the establishment of a National Deaths in Custody Monitoring and Research Program

Quote
Many years after RCIADIC, problems persisted, and various criticisms have been made about the Commission. Some blame the lack of commitment by the various governments to properly implement its recommendations; others blame the Commission, saying it was too constrained by its mandate and so could not possibly have achieved the necessary reforms to tackle the marginalisation of Indigenous people.

Note that the big royal commission specifically excluded any serious discussion of why aboriginal people were incarcerated in greater numbers in the first place, and the enabler for that was in fact the narrow focus of the "deaths in custody" thing. The commission was in fact constrained to largely look at the narrow issue of prison safety due to how the issue was framed.

Which they didn't find any real racial difference in, and which they then decided they needed to spend millions more per year to keep track of. Keeping track in this way does pretty much nothing to address the underlying issues: the narrow focus did and does in fact give them license to only look at the issue narrowly and avoid the big picture questions.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2020, 12:30:44 am by Reelya »
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feelotraveller

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3792 on: August 18, 2020, 12:29:52 am »


Um, that's deeply illogical.  Such misallocation of resources is guided (or justfied) by the (mis)identification of the salient part of Aborignal deaths in custody being 'Aboriginal inmates deaths in prison'.

Let me demostrate the allocation of resources thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission_into_Aboriginal_Deaths_in_Custody#Final_report

Quote
The Commission concluded that the 99 deaths investigated were not due to police violence
...
The Royal Commission reported that Aboriginal people in custody died at about the same rate as non-Aboriginal people in custody
...
A related issue, not investigated by the Commission, is the disproportionately high number of Indigenous Australians who come under some form of custody or who are imprisoned under the law
...
One of the outcomes of the Commission was the establishment of a National Deaths in Custody Monitoring and Research Program

Quote
Many years after RCIADIC, problems persisted, and various criticisms have been made about the Commission. Some blame the lack of commitment by the various governments to properly implement its recommendations; others blame the Commission, saying it was too constrained by its mandate and so could not possibly have achieved the necessary reforms to tackle the marginalisation of Indigenous people.

There's your smoking gun of the misallocation of resources. Why spend millions doing research into the racial differences of something you already have stats on that show no racial differences, rather than focus on other areas that do? The deaths-in-custody monitoring stuff they recommended does jack shit, since they didn't in fact find any statistical evidence of a difference in that specific thing, so it's effectively a waste of effort that could have gone towards more effective means. So ... we didn't find an actual difference but the main focus will be spending millions more every year just to check ... ?

That emphasis relegates the entire "monitoring" system they put in place to a type of palliative care for those already screwed by the system.

Except it was (partly) covered by the Royal Commission.  While the intial terms of reference were quite narrow the amendments made on 5 May 1988 did, specifically:

"(ii) authorise him, for the purpose of reporting on any
underlying issues associated with the deaths to take account
of social, cultural and legal factors which, in his judgment
appeared to have a bearing on the deaths,"

And indeed it's findings did pursue these issues

"Its final report, tabled on April 15, 1991, found Indigenous people were more likely to die in custody because they were more likely to be in custody. Their over-representation in police and prison custody was described as 'grossly disproportionate'."

"It found Indigenous disadvantage arose from:

    - prejudicial policing, especially for minor crimes relating to public order;

    - the police tendency to caution, charge and arrest Indigenous people, rather than issue warnings or court attendance notices;

    - police and courts not granting bail to Indigenous people; and

    - courts sentencing Indigenous people to prison rather than handing down non-prison sentences.

Accordingly, a series of the commission’s recommendations sought to decriminalise minor offences, uphold the right to bail and ensure arrest and imprisonment were sanctions of last resort."

https://theconversation.com/deaths-in-custody-25-years-after-the-royal-commission-weve-gone-backwards-57109 (for the last two quotes, the first is directly from the amended terms of reference of the Royal Commission)

Your 'smoking gun' is only enabled by a very selective implementation of the Royal Commission's recommendations.  It is facilitated and perpetuated by the misrepresenation of 'Aborginal deaths in custody' being only an issue of 'the deaths of Aboriginal inmates in prison'.  The latter was not the view of the Royal Commission.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2020, 12:33:18 am by feelotraveller »
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Reelya

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3793 on: August 18, 2020, 12:53:37 am »

That's still a fairly narrow set of parameters vs the whole deal. I'm also trying to look up sentence lengths by race, since the theory would be that they're handing down disproportionately harsh sentences to aboriginal people, and they should stop that, right?

https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/4517.0~2018~Main%20Features~Sentenced%20prisoners~18

Quote
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander sentenced prisoners had shorter periods of incarceration than non-Indigenous sentenced prisoners:

    The median aggregate sentence length for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander prisoners was 2.0 years, compared to 3.5 years for non-Indigenous prisoners. (Table 11)

    The median expected time to serve for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander prisoners was 1.3 years, compared to 2.2 years for non-Indigenous prisoners. (Table 12)

    The median aggregate sentence length for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander sentenced prisoners was longest in South Australia (3.6 years) and shortest in Northern Territory (1.2 years). (Table 26)

So the average sentence length is shorter. Which would imply they're locking them up for more low-level offenses. However a full 34% of those cases are for 'Acts intended to cause injury'. So the proportion of those cases that involve violence is actually quite high, yet the sentence lengths are short. Both these things already imply that the courts are already making efforts to minimize the incarceration rates.

What percentage of those injury cases are domestic violence related?
https://www.aihw.gov.au/getmedia/42299e49-7bef-42db-90ea-0f600004a26c/fvaatsip-c02.pdf.aspx
Here's some data, and the ratio of indigenous women to non-indigenous women listed as escaping family violence is 11:1, which is close to the difference in incarceration rates. This does in fact imply a fair proportion of those 34% are something to do with domestic violence related charges, since you can turn a blind eye to a bit of pot or something and they know this will make the stats better, but turning a blind eye to domestic violence is far more of a rock and a hard place.

EDIT: this is in fact the big sticking point:
https://www.alrc.gov.au/publication/pathways-to-justice-inquiry-into-the-incarceration-rate-of-aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-peoples-alrc-report-133/11-aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-women/drivers-of-incarceration-for-aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-women/

Quote
11.20  The prevalence of family violence in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities, and the damaging effects of family violence and sexual abuse have been recognised as key drivers of the incarceration of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander men and, increasingly, women. Family violence has been described as cyclical and intergenerational.

11.21  Research suggests that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women are up to 35 times more likely to experience domestic and family violence than non-Indigenous Australian women and that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women and girls are 31 times more likely to be hospitalised due to domestic and family violence-related assaults compared to non-Indigenous women and men.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2020, 01:39:06 am by Reelya »
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Cthulhu

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3794 on: August 20, 2020, 12:33:00 am »

California's in a hell of a zugzwang

Record heat
Rolling blackouts in record heat
More wildfires
Can't fight them because they rely on convict firefighters and prisons are COVID reactors
Fires closing in on prisons

Failures interlocking and cascading in a way that makes them all massively worse.
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