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[Jopax]

Admit it Kagus, they took your bench and you wanted to get rid of them so YOU could sit there and enjoy a cool beer on a nice summer day.

[scriver]

They were black and Kagus wanted to bbq in the park?

[voliol]

Narcing isn't really that bad in cases where the law-enforcers act according to the situation, e.g. don't escalate/shoot people out of nowhere. Now, I don't know enough about the Norwegian police to judge whether Kagus example is a good one, but they don't necessarily have to be as bad as the American police. The "non-emergency" part implies they might be the more relaxed police e.g. SalmonGod is calling for in the US.

[martinuzz]

It is clear less needs to be spent on candles. Candles can’t be eaten, or drank, or used for access to current events (news). Rent is needed because shelter’s a requirement, and data is needed because knowing what’s happening is important.
If all money from candles was spent on the other things, and everything was spent equally, rent, food, data and utility would get $1225 dollars each

Candles can be eaten. At least, some people over here in the hunger winter of WW2 got by on a diet of candles and flower bulbs.
Whether it is healthy to eat them is another matter.

[Cthulhu]

I've heard rumors that Floyd's death was a mob hit, Chauvin and Floyd both worked at the same nightclub (typical mob establishments, notably good for small-bill money laundering and counterfeiting), Chauvin having worked there while also serving as a police officer for 17 years.  Some suggesting Chauvin took him out relating to the counterfeiting scheme.  I don't believe it, but it's certainly sketchy, and the sad thing is it wouldn't change a thing about the current situation, aside from getting him in jail for even longer.

Abolishing the police I think is the ultimate goal, but police/incarceration/violent crime are an interlocking problem and I don't think you can just kick the cops out and replace them with social workers and call it a day.  You need to solve all three concurrently, and since especially violent crime is a problem of socialization (specifically socialization in a highly insecure environment; gangs especially are just states for people the de jure state has failed) it'll take multiple generations to actually resolve the unholy trinity of violence in the US.

I think the Minneapolis experiment will probably fail, and in doing so set back the police abolition cause by decades.

[Loud Whispers]

Abolishing the police is such a wild idea, what comes after? Rebuild the police force from fresh, or try do something new altogether?

[TamerVirus]

Some suggesting Chauvin took him out relating to the counterfeiting scheme.  I don't believe it, but it's certainly sketchy, and the sad thing is it wouldn't change a thing about the current situation, aside from getting him in jail for even longer.

If this was the case then how did Chauvin position himself to be on the crew of officers sent to respond when the call came in? Was the grocery store in on it as well?

[George_Chickens]

Some suggesting Chauvin took him out relating to the counterfeiting scheme.  I don't believe it, but it's certainly sketchy, and the sad thing is it wouldn't change a thing about the current situation, aside from getting him in jail for even longer.

If this was the case then how did Chauvin position himself to be on the crew of officers sent to respond when the call came in? Was the grocery store in on it as well?

The Freemasons did it.

[Reelya]

I do wonder how that is going to work in practice though. Who are people going to call when they get robbed, or when their child gets raped? Ghostbusters?

I already mentioned it, but there are other places that did this exact thing, with good results. So it's not something people have to go in blind. Just go ask the council in Camden, New Jersey how they did it.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/

The trick with Camden is that you scrap the department completely, then you create a new structure and put your selected people in charge. Remember the guy who knelt on Mr Floyd's neck was the training officer for two of the other officers on that day. So you have get rid of the old department and make your own new department, and you strictly control the training processes as well as implement a strict disciplinary process. The rots already set in, but if you make your own new organization then you can better control how that operates.

Then you drum deescalation into the new officers during mandatory training, as well as making them sign off that they clearly understand what they're supposed to do if another officer, any other officer, doesn't follow the protocols. The important thing here is that you put your own command and training structure in place, guys who have been hired on the express understanding of what outcomes are required. If you leave the existing command structure in there and try and reform it, what they'll do is sabotage everything with a wink and a nod that you're just supposed to ignore the deescalation training, because the pencil-pushers don't know how it is "on the streets" and that the department will cover for you no matter how you fuck up, then they put a neck-stomper in charge of training to show the rookies how things are meant to work.

[TamerVirus]

The Freemasons did it.

Really? I should ask them at the next Zoom lodge meeting. _{Since I'm actually a third degree master mason...}

[SalmonGod]

It's maybe worth a reminder that police in their current form are a relatively new development in human history - I'm sure some history buffs might pop in and argue details, but according to wikipedia the first modern-style police force was established in London in 1829.  Not going to fact-check myself on this right now but my impression last time I did some light reading on this was it took like 100 years after for such police forces to become common around the world.  And by police I don't mean the general concept of people enforcing the law.  I mean police as a distinct profession with large membership, whose activities include visible presence in public spaces as deterrent and pro-active patrolling to catch petty crimes in process or even before they're suspected to begin.  In other words - people who spend their time on the job looking for trouble in a community, which is obviously especially problematic when most police don't live in the communities they work, and thus aren't savvy or sympathetic to the actual issues those communities care about.

Maybe with this in mind, it's not as much of a stretch to imagine doing ok without them.

[Kagus]

Yeah, no, calling the cops (even for a violent emergency) isn't a death sentence here like it is in the states. Norway's had, what... 7 deaths by police since 2002?

We do get a lot of drunk and disorderly conduct however, especially around city center, so yeah... Felt a sense of "civic duty" and wanted to get more comfortable with using the police phone system so that I'd be able to handle it better should something actually serious pop up, so I called the cops on the guys technically breaking the law in the middle of town in broad daylight.

They were black

As with most Norwegians, even here in the "highest immigrant population" center, they were white enough that I thought Gondor was calling for aid at first.

[Reelya]

It's maybe worth a reminder that police in their current form are a relatively new development in human history - I'm sure some history buffs might pop in and argue details, but according to wikipedia the first modern-style police force was established in London in 1829. 
...
Maybe with this in mind, it's not as much of a stretch to imagine doing ok without them.

Yeah, not really. Remember 200 years ago people didn't generally have to go work for 8 hours leaving their houses unattended while their kids were also mandatorily required to go to school. People who had wealth back then generally did have armed guards, and poorer people lived in extended families and/or their home was their workplace. Without police people are going to have to really take home security into their own hands. If you're anti-gun it would hard to justify pushing that through while also saying there are not going to be any police you can call for backup if someone attacks you.

Note, like Kagus's nation, Australia also has a very low rate of killings by police officers. The average is about 5 per year, so well less than 1% of what you see in America (it's about 1/15th the rate on a per-capita basis). It's the same as health care reform. A right-winger in the USA might throw their hands up and say "universal health care will never work!" and given an argument why it can't work. No matter how good that argument appears on paper, you can just say "uh, but most other countries have universal health care and it's working fine, so your arguments are clearly wrong without me needing to go into the details". For police reforms, there's no need to jump straight to the "abolishing the police would be better, there's no other way" thing, because that's not based on rational evidence and the assumption that there's no other way is clearly wrong, for the same reasons that rejecting universal health care is wrong. Whatever arguments you come up with for either of those things not being possible to fix are clearly wrong because there exist other people who have fixed them.

[scriver]

It's maybe worth a reminder that police in their current form are a relatively new development in human history
[...]
Maybe with this in mind, it's not as much of a stretch to imagine doing ok without them

So is the rights-state and not having fuckhueg crime numbers everywhere and people nor walking around armed at all times though

And I kind of like those developments

[martinuzz]

It's maybe worth a reminder that police in their current form are a relatively new development in human history - I'm sure some history buffs might pop in and argue details, but according to wikipedia the first modern-style police force was established in London in 1829.  Not going to fact-check myself on this right now but my impression last time I did some light reading on this was it took like 100 years after for such police forces to become common around the world.  And by police I don't mean the general concept of people enforcing the law.  I mean police as a distinct profession with large membership, whose activities include visible presence in public spaces as deterrent and pro-active patrolling to catch petty crimes in process or even before they're suspected to begin.  In other words - people who spend their time on the job looking for trouble in a community, which is obviously especially problematic when most police don't live in the communities they work, and thus aren't savvy or sympathetic to the actual issues those communities care about.

Maybe with this in mind, it's not as much of a stretch to imagine doing ok without them.

Oh, the good old days when lynch mobs were still a thing, and crazy old cat ladies (or anyone who slightly deviates from the hood's norm) could still be burned at the stake as a witch by their neighbors.