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[ShinQuickMan]

Moving some questions I had for FantasticDorf and Evaris from this thread to here:

Forgive me if my Google-fu is weak on the matter, but I'm having trouble substantiating some claims around here:

But we can dissect that BLM is currently orbiting a state declared terrorist group (ANTIFA) currently under investigation and active use of the Insurrection Act (last deployed in the 1992 riots under similar circumstances) with postings of the National Guard around the country to keep order, so not I do feel like to suddenly come out with this statement publically that player contributions were indirectly funding these groups as misguided altruism could not invoke concern and worry that contributions will be likely used to fuel the situation.

Are you suggesting that actors in the BLM movement and "ANTIFA" (presumably a certain branch or branches) are coordinating with each other? Do you have a source?

1.  There is clear concern in regards to the possibility of funds going to Antifa.  As for those saying that it is "merely a concept" I am afraid it is no more such than many middle eastern terrorist groups.  As things stand, Antifa has a core ideology book, cells which publicly identify as such with uniforms, sell their uniforms and book of ideology, have clear avenues of funding with business accounts, their cells have hierarchical structures as organizations, etc.  They operate much in the way that various gangs or terrorist cells do, and as such can be considered such.  Furthermore, members of Antifa have now been linked to murders caused in recent riots, and portray themselves as a communist group, while also taking the name of a historical communist group.  As such, it can be legally declared that they are politically motivated, such being the determinator between the difference between such a group being designated as a gang or a terrorist group. With that said, it is unlikely Toady has any risk of seeing jail time, unless Toady himself were active in criminal activity after declaring support for such an organization, or he were directly providing money to the organization rather than second-hand.  However, he may see himself put on a watchlist or actively survived.  Albeit realistically speaking, in the age of the patriot act, essentially everyone is anyway, if not as in depth. 

Where, how, and from whom do ANTIFA groups receive funding? Where can we find confirmation of ANTIFA group members being responsible for murders during these riots?

[Jimmy]

You're also ignoring that most of the police who are shot, are shot by other police officers. It turns out when you give people with poor impulse control steroids, a gun, and free reign, they aren't careful.

Interesting! Source?

So, 55 actual murders of police officers, out of 686665 means a murder rate conveniently close to 8.0 / 100,000. Now that's not actually much more than the average murder rate of the USA in general, which is 5.0 / 100,000. And it's a lot less than the average murder rate of dozens of US cities in general.

Also note your 1/20000 figure turned out to be a bit low. And it's just the average murder rate for Americans of all types. So if cops had that murder rate it would mean they're a safe profession, since murders of them would be at "background" rates.

Those are some great stats, thanks! It's interesting to see how different the numbers become when using different sources of information. As a wise man once said, 'the two greatest liars are politicians and statisticians.'

While the numbers using these are therefore lower, it still shows a cop is nearly twice as likely to be murdered as a civilian, and this is even given that they wear protective equipment and have training to specifically avoid this outcome. I think my original point still stands up to scrutiny as to how this could serve as a motivation for the patterns of behavior we see in law enforcement officers in the USA.

[Cthulhu]

Once again, cops murdering and getting into shootouts with civilians is just the most visible part of a deep, extensive problem which I suggest you research, and civilian gun ownership in the US long predates this problem. 

Expecting American civilians to unilaterally disarm while the police remain unaltered is a waste of wear-and-tear on your keyboard at best because it's never gonna happen, and actively counterproductive at worst.

[SOLDIER First]

It's almost as if volunteering yourself for a job where you may potentially have to put your life on the line in the name of upholding the law (and ostensibly, but not really, protecting people's safety) means you're more likely to end up being murdered than someone who does not do that. Funny how things work out, isn't it?

[kaijyuu]

I'd rather guns be in the hands of civilians over cops. At least the civilians typically have accountability when they shoot someone (aside from, of course, ridiculous "stand your ground" laws and such that try to take such accountability away...).

Radical changes would be awesome of course but a more plausible thing to do on a national level I think would be to keep guns out of the hands of first responders. No more gun holsters as part of the standard uniform; guns are kept inside police cars or in the hands of secondary responders (swat/etc) that are called in AFTER the situation's been established.

[scriver]

But if they don't have holsters then they can't put their guns away after they retrieve them

[SOLDIER First]

I think the point to that is they can only retrieve their gun when a situation of sufficient lethal force is established and only put them away in the safety of a vehicle when that situation has regressed and no longer requires equal force in response (whether that be detainment or, unfortunately, death). No more constant threat of a cop being able to shoot you without a moment's notice because you moved wrong; ideally they wouldn't bring them out at all without legitimate prior cause to.

[Bumber]

I'd rather guns be in the hands of civilians over cops. At least the civilians typically have accountability when they shoot someone (aside from, of course, ridiculous "stand your ground" laws and such that try to take such accountability away...).

Wouldn't you end up with more of those kind of laws if the cops didn't have the guns? Imagine more Ahmaud Arbery incidents.

[scriver]

I think the point to that is they can only retrieve their gun when a situation of sufficient lethal force is established and only put them away in the safety of a vehicle when that situation has regressed and no longer requires equal force in response (whether that be detainment or, unfortunately, death). No more constant threat of a cop being able to shoot you without a moment's notice because you moved wrong; ideally they wouldn't bring them out at all without legitimate prior cause to.

I meant it as a "they can't deescalate" joke

[SOLDIER First]

Oh, my bad.

Not untrue.

[Red Diamond]

The police here are merely the scapegoat for the violent and racist tendencies of American society in general.

I feel like it's more they're just the next step towards moderating violent and racist tendencies in Murrican society

I guess you have to start somewhere but I do get the impression that the result of this situation is just as likely to be the othering of the police, in effect a sort of 'racism' against policemen as something outside of decent, polite society than a real opportunity for the society to self-criticize. 

[Rusty]

I'd rather guns be in the hands of civilians over cops. At least the civilians typically have accountability when they shoot someone (aside from, of course, ridiculous "stand your ground" laws and such that try to take such accountability away...).

Radical changes would be awesome of course but a more plausible thing to do on a national level I think would be to keep guns out of the hands of first responders. No more gun holsters as part of the standard uniform; guns are kept inside police cars or in the hands of secondary responders (swat/etc) that are called in AFTER the situation's been established.

Stand Your Ground is, frustratingly, one of those situations in law where myth has vastly overtaken reality.  It's an extremely rare situation where both the loudest opponents and proponents of the law are not only in complete agreement of how the law operates, but they're also completely wrong on that point as well.  How most people think stand your ground works isn't actually how it works.  I blame politicians and the media for attaching cute monikers to it like "make my day law" and "line in the sand law" that have little to no semblance to its actual legal effect.

[voliol]

The police here are merely the scapegoat for the violent and racist tendencies of American society in general.

I feel like it's more they're just the next step towards moderating violent and racist tendencies in Murrican society

I guess you have to start somewhere but I do get the impression that the result of this situation is just as likely to be the othering of the police, in effect a sort of 'racism' against policemen as something outside of decent, polite society than a real opportunity for the society to self-criticize.

Do the police form an ethnicity, now? I think your point gets through, but the choice of words is rather bizarre. Vocations tend to be a matter of choice, after all, both in joining and in leaving.

[nenjin]

The police here are merely the scapegoat for the violent and racist tendencies of American society in general.

I feel like it's more they're just the next step towards moderating violent and racist tendencies in Murrican society

I guess you have to start somewhere but I do get the impression that the result of this situation is just as likely to be the othering of the police, in effect a sort of 'racism' against policemen as something outside of decent, polite society than a real opportunity for the society to self-criticize.

Do the police form an ethnicity, now? I think your point gets through, but the choice of words is rather bizarre. Vocations tend to be a matter of choice, after all, both in joining and in leaving.

Seen ACAB? (All Cops Are Bastards.) We're heading that way. I don't agree with it but some people seem to be taking it as a position.

[Doomblade187]

Even if everyone around the world went ACAB tomorrow, police could still resign and pivot into private security - it's a profession, not an ethnicity.