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[SalmonGod]

You're trying to be practical without accepting simple practical solutions. Punish the murderer and the people who have let him get away with it for so long, and all of the murderers who have been killing people since (at least 4 since protests began, in addition to other assaults, etc.).

By practical I mean, "punish how"?  Just saying "punish" doesn't mean anything.  Who is going to punish them? What does the punishment look like?

This is what I mean by "practical".

I suppose I could offer this as a one possibility, but it has some potential nasty side effects: send in the National Guard, not to augment the police, but to protect the protesters.

Most just want two things

1.  Police treated the same under the law as everybody else.
2.  Police to enforce the law equally between races/classes

When there's overwhelming evidence that a civilian is suspect in a murder, they're arrested and charged swiftly.  It should be the same for Derek Chauvin and buddies.  If they were subject to the law the same as anyone else, they would have all 4 been arrested within hours.

I understand that police are going to end up in violent situations where they must engage in self-defense more often than civilians, so the same level of scrutiny in such situations may not be tenable.  But hardly anyone argues cases where there's reason to believe an officer was reacting to legit danger.  And where there is serious doubt, the law should apply the same.

And when poor people/minorities get arrested, they don't need to get roughed up for no reason, while white people committing mass murder can be safely apprehended and offered a stop at a fast food place on the way to jail and rich white collar criminals go untouched.

What's meant by punish is for anyone responsible for unnecessary violence to be treated the same under the law.  I don't think that's really complicated?  The other officers who aided Derek Chauvin should be arrested.  And any officers who used unjust force during these protests should be arrested.  They should be charged with crimes and processed accordingly.  Like everyone else.

And if the problem is so pervasive that that means there's not enough clean cops to arrest all the criminal cops, which is entirely possible....... then the answer is the same.  It's just making it happen that's more complicated.

[Rolan7]

What's the de-escalation plan for the protesters?  Have they even indicated the things that would make them stop protesting / rioting?

I mean something practical, not just "we want justice!"  What do they want other than just having the perpetrators put in jail?  If that won't appease them, what will?  I don't think a public execution is a realistic demand, even though I'm sure that what some people want.

Fair question.  The protests aren't really centralized of course, so there isn't a hard line that would cause some high command to send all the angry, desperate demonstrators home.  But there are demands being made, some a bit more short-term and demonstrable than ending racial police brutality.

The main one is that the three other officers involved in the killing be arrested.  The mood seems to be that a single scapegoat isn't enough anymore (even assuming that this one gets convicted).  I agree with the logic here - the systemic problem isn't lone racists.  Its the fact that lone racists (or more generally, any cop who breaks the law of makes yet another fatal mistake) is supported by other officers.  There is an internal system for investigation and it has CLEARLY failed.  In my opinion it has failed to uphold justice and accountability, but it has very evidently failed to convince the public that they can trust internal investigation. 

Even prosecutors have to risk their entire careers by bringing such cases, in a systematic conflict-of-interest.  Theoretically departments should be happy to work with prosecutors to disavow and incarcerate dirty cops, but instead they very nearly always close ranks and resist investigation.  I know there are many good cops.  But the system is so deeply corrupt that they aren't in a position to help (beyond anonymous whisteblowing, or risking their lives).

Er, right - that's why the other cops involved need to be arrested this time.  To show that being complicit has consequences for once.

Other demands tend to include amnesty for nonviolent civil disobedience in the protest.  I don't know if that's common as a guarantee, but such charges are often thrown out by prosecutors after protests.  So... some evidence of that happening would be good.

More arrests of the police on video assaulting protesters with doors is probably on the list for many people.  Basically:  Getting more than one maniac cop off the streets would go a long way to showing that the protests were taken seriously.  Whether any charges will stick is obviously a longer-term issue, but the demonstrations have... demonstrated... that there will be consequences for trying to sweep these actions under the rug.

Edit:  Last I heard the body cam footage was still being held, too.  That's an obvious one, and I hope they have a good explanation for how long they're holding it!
(Like, I actually hope so.  This situation is very rough, and my voting ass wants my government to negotiate this situation away like yesterday)

[martinuzz]

Meanwhile in London and Berlin, people also rallied to protest against police violence and racism in the US.
There were a few incidents in London, but mostly the protests were peaceful and orderly.
5 people were arrested outside the US embassy; 3 for violating corona laws, 2 for attacking the police.
Tomorrow a demonstration is also planned at the Dam, in Amsterdam.

[nenjin]

There have been a couple days of protest here in Lincoln. On Friday like 50 people started throwing rocks through a gas station window. Police showed up and fired tear gas to disperse them. Yesterday night there were protests and damage occurred in the downtown business / government area, particularly the Hall of Justice. One officer, some people were injured, apparently there was a stabbing. By and large the protests have been peaceful, officials are saying, but they're instituting a curfew tonight from 8pm to 6am. Omaha is doing three days of curfew, not sure how long our's are supposed to last.

And apparently tonight is high school graduation for the 2020 class too. Oy vey. Welcome to the rest of your lives.....

Me not really going anywhere or reading anything, I only found out about this from a text thread of friends.

[Iduno]

Meanwhile in London and Berlin, people also rallied to protest against police violence and racism in the US.
There were a few incidents in London, but mostly the protests were peaceful and orderly.
5 people were arrested outside the US embassy; 3 for violating corona laws, 2 for attacking the police.
Tomorrow a demonstration is also planned at the Dam, in Amsterdam.

Gee, he asks sarcastically, how can someone maintain order without shooting or beating protestors, medics, journalists, and innocent bystanders? And also inciting and escalating violence, including likely comitting arson against local businesses (Minneapolis Police Department says he's not the police officer who looks identical to the picture and was recognized by his ex-wife, including some of her stuff, but...).

[Dostoevsky]

As is probably evidence by my prior posts I'm something of a moderate these days, and usually am not one to feel sympathy for violent protests but... I feel like I can't rightly condemn that sort of action at this point. After so many egregious killings, and such a mixed/little response (varies by county/precinct, sure), and then to have such a truly nonchalant murder of a person. Not just by the primary officer, but by the others around him.

It's injustice layered upon injustice. Will violent protests and whatnot make a difference? Probably not. But peaceful protest hasn't really been working either, nor has just about anything else. Can't say I would join in, or condone it, but at this point I daresay I sympathize with it. What recourse is there? People say to look forward to the next election, but not like Biden is inspiring confidence on that front.

[Iduno]

As is probably evidence by my prior posts I'm something of a moderate these days, and usually am not one to feel sympathy for violent protests but... I feel like I can't rightly condemn that sort of action at this point. After so many egregious killings, and such a mixed/little response (varies by county/precinct, sure), and then to have such a truly nonchalant murder of a person. Not just by the primary officer, but by the others around him.

It's injustice layered upon injustice. Will violent protests and whatnot make a difference? Probably not. But peaceful protest hasn't really been working either, nor has just about anything else. Can't say I would join in, or condone it, but at this point I daresay I sympathize with it. What recourse is there? People say to look forward to the next election, but not like Biden is inspiring confidence on that front.

Yeah. In the US, the type of protest is just an excuse for police to hurt whomever they want. Once the excuse exists, theyll just hurt people because they can get away with it.

[Rolan7]

I don't really follow Trevor Noah's Daily Show but this vidblog of his has some very real takes in my opinion.  He does a better job of explaining something I've been feeling seeing all this: society is a contract, not a moral imperative.  Kant was a tool.  ...tldr, when people in power (of various kinds) are constantly flaunting the contract, there's no reason to expect everyone else to respect that contract.

The trust has been betrayed, and no amount of force will perpetuate that forever.

On that note, actually, someone else pointed out that history shows that such overwhelming force by the government horrifies normal citizens.  They sympathize with the peaceful protesters even as they resent the rioters.

That person standing in front of a SWAT van and getting pepper sprayed is a hero.  The journalist who I believe lost an eye (CW: graphic eye wound) is a hero.  The rioters don't diminish that one iota.  The rioting is a result of authorities disgracing the social contract.  Ignoring and mocking nonviolent protest.

I want nothing more than for this to be over, but I can't ignore that my country is sick.  That's the power of these protests.  Something has to change.

[A Thing]

So news from Birmingham, Alabama: peaceful protests started yesterday and continued today and have escalated a bit (definitely not a riot) and it seems that now a Confederate monument (I'm assuming the Confederate statues in that park are being taken down as well, but I haven't seen anything) is being taken down in Linn Park. There haven't been any arrests in Birmingham so far as I can tell*, and the police have not as of right now tried to prevent the protesters from taking down the monument. The mayor has offered a deal to the protesters to give the city government 24 hours to take the monument down, and if not done by then, to do it themselves. The main organizer Jermaine "Funnymaine" Johnson** has taken the deal, but has also said that he isn't going to stop people that stay from taking the monument down; if it goes it goes. Mayor said police will come if people don't leave, and I'm not sure how many have left.

Ideally this will finish without a clash between protesters and police, but I'm not sure at this point. Last I saw crowbars/sledgehammers, etc were being taken to it but it's a pretty durable thing apparently. Mayor supposedly came to prevent people from hurting themselves taking it down, although I didn't get all of his speech (lots of talking) so he probably said more than that. 

Worth noting that these damn statues and monuments are a long-standing controversy in Birmingham. As far as I remember the city tried having them taken down a while ago, state intervened so they covered them up, and the state intervened again there so they uncovered them partially. It is far from surprising that there was not much of a police response to protesters taking these things down. As far as I know, no one in the city really wants them there. Not sure on the history of them, but I imagine they're probably a Jim Crow era thing, and almost certainly not actually contemporary to the Confederacy.

I suppose, we will find out the result in the morning.

*Hoover, a suburb of Birmingham is a different story. 20+ arrests there, and two stores had windows broken. Not sure if the arrests came first or later.
**This is the name I heard in the livestream, as far as I know he's been open about his participation and place as an organizer so I don't think I'm outing him by using his name. Will remove if situation changes.

fakeedit: Source is a livestream from AL.com, not sure if it's archived yet. I didn't see the whole thing, so I'm not sure how long it was in-between the truck showing up and trying to pull the thing down and the mayor stepping in. I'd advise looking everything up on your own before taking my word for anything.

realedit: Statues are definitely down, just saw a photo of one on the ground. Not going to link because 1. it doesn't cover up the protesters faces and 2. not sure if it's in accordance with forum guidelines. Should be able to find it on your own. I think it's just the Confederate monument left.

Also, Jermaine Johnson didn't organize the whole protest, just tearing down the monument for clarification.

[Doomblade187]

Just gonna share a fat Twitter thread that collects police incitement incidents:

https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1266957030285127687

[Max™]

Checking in from Memphis, I haven't been to any protests BECAUSE THERE IS A FUCKING PANDEMIC STILL GODDAMMIT FUCKING CHRIST WHY IS THIS HARD TO REMEMBER... but from what I've heard of them online they've been peaceful, and I can note I haven't heard gunfire so that's nice.

[martinuzz]

Holy shit, Minneapolis came close to a bloodbath.
That crowd was very lucky they moved out of the path of that tanker truck trying to drive into them, or we would have been looking at dozens if not hundreds of dead and wounded.
"As by a miracle nobody was injured.  The driver, who was dragged out of his truck, was taken to hospital with light injuries, and has been arrested by the police".

[A Thing]

Update to the Birmingham protests: windows were broken and a fire was attempted at the courthouse (thing is made of stone, not going to happen easily.) I think some of the interiors were torn up too? Didn't seem to be any looting though. Three reporters were attacked by possibly protesters*, two with minor(?)** injuries, but that seems to be the extent of the damages so far. We'll see what happens today and tonight, but I don't get the impression we're going to have full out riots.*** Imagine the mayor is going to have a statement later on this morning.

*Unclear whether the people who attacked them were part of the protests earlier or only showed up once things started getting violent.
**They were able to tweet out that they're fine, so I'm assuming they're not grievous wounds.
**Not up here in the Birmingham metro area anyway, pepper balls were deployed in Mobile, so that shit is going to get hairy or already has.

Also, yeah that tanker in Minneapolis was something else. Hopefully the guy gets put in prison for it, definitely was attempted mass murder.

[Iduno]

Holy shit, Minneapolis came close to a bloodbath.
That crowd was very lucky they moved out of the path of that tanker truck trying to drive into them, or we would have been looking at dozens if not hundreds of dead and wounded.
"As by a miracle nobody was injured.  The driver, who was dragged out of his truck, was taken to hospital with light injuries, and has been arrested by the police".

Yeah. After the driver tried to run down the protestors, they rescued him and got him medical attention.

[Il Palazzo]

What's up with that whole thing, though? The guy did not seem particularly keen on aiming at people, and stopped of his own accord. Even turned away from the one protester that was slow to get off (lying on?) the road. Did he change his mind half way through? Can an accident be ruled out?