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[Arcvasti]

After reading through the recent pages, I think this discussion should be taken to a dedicated thread, so we can resume posting cheery stories of systematic racism and class oppression in this one.

[Loud Whispers]

After reading through the recent pages, I think this discussion should be taken to a dedicated thread, so we can resume posting cheery stories of systematic racism and class oppression in this one.

To be fair I reckon the whole systematic racism and misanthropic world order is  rather part and parcel as to why security grows ever more daunting against the people it is supposed to protect

[redwallzyl]

Progress was poorly named.

No, just incomplete, as ever it will be. Messy, too.

In probably the biggest social engineering project of our age, we're slowly, haltingly coming to terms with the idea that >99% of us are useless when compared to our machines and trying to figure out what a meaningful life looks like when we don't have a thing we need to do because only we can. One could say that we can no longer rely on the luxury of necessity and are trying to learn how to live without it.

The word progress is rather like the word development. It has an implied goodness and benefit but when you really look there is so much one sided exploitation. People in the "developing" world don't call it neocolonialism for nothing.

[Egan_BW]

Development has a positive connotation? Since when? Development is what happens when a disease gets closer to killing you, and there are probably more troubling developments than welcome ones.

[Doomblade187]

Development has a positive connotation? Since when? Development is what happens when a disease gets closer to killing you, and there are probably more troubling developments than welcome ones.

Personal development, Professional development, developing land, etc. Yes, you're right that it does have negative connotations, but there are enough situations to use the word that it really depends on context.

[Egan_BW]

"Personal development" is the only one of those that really sounds positive to me, ehe.

[SalmonGod]

( I spend 80% of my waking hours in a cubicle because my grandfathers spent 80% of their waking hours in a coal mine. That's progress. )

Progress vs 100 years ago, but not 50-60.  We made progress on establishing better relationships between employers and labor in the mid-20th, and then we regressed.

Plus, there was tangible need for manual labor such as coal mining.  And looking back at the tools they had to manage a labor force then, it's more understandable (even if still inexcusable) that their conditions would be inhumane.  There's no excuse whatsoever today.  Most of the work we're doing is frankly bullshit that either does very little of benefit for anyone relative to the amount of effort and stress invested, or it should be obsolete and the only reason it hasn't been rendered obsolete to free humanity from unnecessary bullshit work is capitalism.

[Kagus]

Nobody else is reacting to the "women should make kids (at an appropriately young age) and tend them while the man works", "a man's career is his only worth", "no sex before marriage", "slut-shaming is communal glue", and "no homo" aspects of that post?

Well, alright. I suppose that is a thread derail, unless you file it under morality policing.

[Maximum Spin]

All of those things are part of the old social order that people are currently discussing. It is certainly not inaccurate to list them as such.

[Trekkin]

Nobody else is reacting to the "women should make kids (at an appropriately young age) and tend them while the man works", "a man's career is his only worth", "no sex before marriage", "slut-shaming is communal glue", and "no homo" aspects of that post?

What would be the point in challenging them? This is well beyond the point where I'm interested in anything but how deep the rabbit hole goes, and I've seen how this one ends before.

[Kagus]

The thing I'm reacting to is that, unless I've misinterpreted something, he seems to be advocating a return to those standards, which is a suggestion I'm opposed to.

[scriver]

I forwent replying as it was followed by this post

After reading through the recent pages, I think this discussion should be taken to a dedicated thread, so we can resume posting cheery stories of systematic racism and class oppression in this one.

The contents of which I agree with.

[Dorsidwarf]

The thing I'm reacting to is that, unless I've misinterpreted something, he seems to be advocating a return to those standards, which is a suggestion I'm opposed to.

I suspect that some people, like me, have had that exact argument a dozen times before and know that it never goes anywhere useful

[Shazbot]

The thing I'm reacting to is that, unless I've misinterpreted something, he seems to be advocating a return to those standards, which is a suggestion I'm opposed to.

Well, that's fine. These are the standards I live by. You could call it my lifestyle choice. I believe these social norms create well-adjusted, well-fathered young men who are less likely to commit the crimes that require policing. I believe these norms broke down in the African-American community and repairing those norms is crucial to ending the violence. Don Lemon said it as much.

"And number one, and probably the most important, just because you can have a baby, it doesn't mean you should. Especially without planning for one or getting married first. More than 72 percent of children in the African-American community are born out of wedlock. That means absent fathers. And the studies show that lack of a male role model is an express train right to prison and the cycle continues. So, please, black folks, as I said if this doesn't apply to you, I'm not talking to you. Pay attention to and think about what has been presented in recent history as acceptable behavior. Pay close attention to the hip-hop and rap culture that many of you embrace. A culture that glorifies everything I just mentioned, thug and reprehensible behavior, a culture that is making a lot of people rich, just not you. And it's not going to."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1307/27/cnr.06.html

And this he said in the context of Trayvon Martin.

I've no interest in forcing my lifestyle on anyone because I believe individual choices based on a public dialogue guides society far better than a gathering of experts pushing a pet social policy on a pet minority. There has been a push by experts and the push-back is mis-characterized, ostracized and silenced by those experts gathering a moral outrage brigade. That is not a public dialogue. And I really have no interest in accumulating a moral outrage brigade on a forum to shut down opinions I do not like.

And that does not suggest a single one of your mis-characterizations is accurate. Where did you even get "no homo" is beyond me, beyond the presumption a reproductive coupling is male and female. Even granting that isn't true, I don't consider that an unreasonable presumption when discussing demographically-significant averages, or is it reasonable, or even in good-faith, to assume someone is homophobic for failing to mince words to the specifics of your satisfaction.

This may be the reason the argument goes nowhere useful.

[Egan_BW]

Nobody else is reacting to the "women should make kids (at an appropriately young age) and tend them while the man works", "a man's career is his only worth", "no sex before marriage", "slut-shaming is communal glue", and "no homo" aspects of that post?

Well, alright. I suppose that is a thread derail, unless you file it under morality policing.

Hah, I seriously considered challenging it. But honestly I'm not here to have Arguments On The Internet with people whose views I see as abhorrent.