Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 158 159 [160] 161 162 ... 295

Author Topic: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice  (Read 446338 times)

smjjames

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2385 on: May 03, 2018, 08:26:29 pm »

Generational contempt isn't new, it happens to every generation what with old people complaining about young people, etc. No idea if it has ever been this level of 'screw you' though.
Logged

Doomblade187

  • Bay Watcher
  • Requires music to get through the working day.
    • View Profile
Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2386 on: May 03, 2018, 08:51:46 pm »

Generational contempt isn't new, it happens to every generation what with old people complaining about young people, etc. No idea if it has ever been this level of 'screw you' though.
I mean, it's not just one generation. The long-term systemic inadequacy has probably been around for a while.
Logged
In any case it would be a battle of critical thinking and I refuse to fight an unarmed individual.
One mustn't stare into the pathos, lest one become Pathos.

MetalSlimeHunt

  • Bay Watcher
  • Gerrymander Commander
    • View Profile
Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2387 on: May 03, 2018, 09:34:45 pm »

I Believe In Behavioral Sink, and I also believe it to be the fault of (what else), capitalism. We as a people and a species are increasingly alienated starting from childhood and only increasing in intensity over time. Humans are socially awkward in the same way dogs are socially awkward, and humans are violently self-isolated in the same way dogs can become violently self-isolated. Capitalism views everything outside acquisition of capital or exploitation of labor as an externality, a wasted byproduct to be used if possible. Socialization and the social value of socializing is one such externality.

Reactionaries are so politically powerful with incels because they're right for the wrong reasons when it comes to the sexual pathology the incels obsess over. It is definitely true that society is now socially dysfunctional in a way that it didn't used to be. It's even true that, say, traditional culture forcing women to marry men was a technically more functional and human-oriented facet of society than the machine-oriented alienated society we've got going on now. They've just decided not to come up with any modern human-oriented ideas and instead advocate violently jamming the world and the people in it back inside a box we outgrew because they have just enough knowledge to think because it used to work for different humans it must be valid for us today. Babies, bathwater, all that rot.

Let us consider the social growth of a person in the developed world today compared to the social growth of a person in a society that values socialization, be that preindustrial or Gay Space Communism flavored.



Beginning at birth, the modern child is alienated through the ongoing disruption of their parents. The burdens of daily economic engagement will frequently separate parent and infant, sometimes over long periods of time. We've all heard the stories about children of wealthy parents both modern and premodern who come to see their babysitters as parental figures, but even in lesser forms the infant is often forced into a stack of practical priorities that even with perfectly loving parents will cause them harm. They may be made to wait to eat, may end up breastfed by an unhealthy mother soaked in stress hormones, may be woken out of turn and carted around to loud horrible places then compelled to sleep all while too young to express their feelings towards any of it. They will have long periods of social constriction to only one or two parents that are then unexpectedly expanded and then retracted once again, making them confused about what they are meant to tolerate.

All this, and we're not even out of infancy. This isn't even a toddler yet. And the above is assuming perfectly loving parents with a functional knowledge of childrearing. Basically acceptable parents are going to fuck up a lot more before and after this line.

Alienation becomes a more explicit force to a young child, because they will have begun meaningfully integrating themselves to the fucked-up social system we have and in turn, then become fucked-up. Your own personal fucked-uppedness more likely than not began here even if you don't remember it. The child spends critical years interacting on a daily basis with either just their parents or nobody, in contravention of the longstanding human norm that is communal parenting. This change means that the most primal social instincts of what is normal socialization end up defaulting to near or total solitude. You know how everyone you know flakes out on plans at the slightest opportunity? Yeah. The critical period is not lost but misused.

The child becomes intelligent enough to be taught behaviors and the most basic kind of moral precepts, which is then often framed in a narrative of crime, punishment, and control. Their parents may inflict violence on them in order to enforce behaviors, and the violence is taught alongside the lesson. It is accepted at this basic level that there must be social controls with undesirable consequences placed upon most things. You eat on a schedule. You sleep on a schedule. Time is valuable and must be kept to. Social solutions to problems, already derailed at this stage, are essentially limited to "please just fucking agree not to bite people and keep to that".

The child then enters the school system. The goals placed before them are ones of a rating system. There are particular, mathematically assessed goals they are expected to meet. And yet at the same time these goals are only an approximation, a vague shadow to measure real knowledge and basically nonexistent on the level of practical mastery of a subject. The child learns their basic ideas of worth and quality along the idea of "getting the best score" (and they say you don't play videogames at school).

If the kid is lucky, they'll get to play at recess and sit where they want at lunch. Even then, the vital task of obtaining peers and learning to live alongside other humans is at the bottom of the totem pole and receives only token support from teachers. They might be given a chance to introduce themselves to their classmates, or they might just get thrown into the deep end and asked to swim. That might not be so bad (humans are highly oriented towards socializing, such that we can even socially communicate with other animals) except, remember, they're already a little bit fucked up from being a toddler.

The path to posting incel memes and becoming a mass shooter begins at this moment. If they are able to self-manage their social development from this point onward (be that from unusually good parents, being predisposed to strong socialization, or simple good luck), then they become the kind of person we'd call "confident" or "gregarious". If not, they are likely to enter into various degrees of what we call "social awkwardness", be that simply a withdrawn social attitude or full blown antisocial malignancy. The chances of "falling off the train" are not helped by continuous elimination of social time at school and breaking up connected people by having no space outside classtime and mixing classes at the end of every year.

By the time they are an adolescent, they are "supposed to" (by metric of the hard-won evolutionary niche humans carved out) have become highly socially experienced and able to move onto more consequential interactions, the ones that can potentially result in having children, advancing/regressing in status, or getting your friend killed by a charging boar. But for virtually everyone the "play socializing" period has been warped and corrupted by the tides of our society, and so the more serious interactions have problems as well. It is thus no surprise that the thing the incels obsess over is the first consequential social failure they are likely to experience, the failure to engage in romantic or sexual relationships. It is at this point that most people who have had social problems in their lives realize that they are in deep shit, that they are living in a society full of aliens, and that they don't know what to do (or worse, they think they know exactly what to do and that the Libertarian Party is the only real answer to America's problems).

The failures spiral out from here, and like a toddler who gets angry because they can't speak real words a person who can't engage in serious socialization becomes consumed with frustration. Transition into being an visionless worker drone/useless layabout or disastrously checking out of life in one way or another soon follows.

A final note here: Mass shooters aren't a part of the mental health crisis. The mental health crisis only exists because we're so drastically out of balance with ourselves that damn near everyone is sick, and mass shooters are by and large completely sane. Horribly sane, and consumed by a hatred both internal and external. To dismiss them as "just mentally ill" is no different than dismissing the Nazis as cackling monstrous supervillians when in reality they were what you'd consider "normal people" up until the carefully weighed and accepted decisions of world conquest and genocide.



The world of the alternative is a world that by necessity must reject capitalistic weighing. We can only hope to value our social quality if our ideas of value are not terminally dependent on profit. We will have to "waste money" and we will even have to "waste time". We will have to look at the world in a way that a group of kids sitting around at a park are not viewed as "doing nothing" and we will have to stop spending our whole lives working just to keep the blood money pumping through our bank accounts. We will have to give up on a fantasy of exclusive dominion over our children and we will have to know what our neighbors are like.

We're even going to have to give up dick measuring every aspect of our lives. It's basically that or dystopia.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 05:37:44 am by MetalSlimeHunt »
Logged
Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

redwallzyl

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2388 on: May 03, 2018, 09:55:13 pm »

+1 MSH

Given my knowledge of human evolution and traditional social structures you are definitely on the right track. Humans were optimized to function in small band groups and small tribal kin groups. It was hardly an easy existence but there was something to it being essentially what were were designed for that made it an incredibly functional arrangement. Hardly perfect but not deviating to much from the intended path. It was not nasty brutish and short like it is thought of but much more like a continual challenge we could face with difficulty that was often unfair but overcomeable with skill and luck. The basis of society in such a totally based around socialization to an extreme degree with groups well able to prevent internal conflict and build that group structure that rewards skill and puts a stop to destructive behaviors. And people had the time and acuity of mind to observe and understand their world that is hard to parallel. To notice the rhythms of the world and build that knowledge that is still profound and insightful today.
Logged

Dorsidwarf

  • Bay Watcher
  • [INTERSTELLAR]
    • View Profile
Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2389 on: May 04, 2018, 02:06:58 am »

The all-consuming lust to have money for money’s sake, rather than to have money to improve your lot in life, sure  Isnt helping th stability of modern society- quite the opposite in fact.
Logged
Quote from: Rodney Ootkins
Everything is going to be alright

martinuzz

  • Bay Watcher
  • High dwarf
    • View Profile
Logged
Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

scourge728

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2391 on: May 04, 2018, 11:06:47 am »

The problem remains, how to find a working system to replace it that doesn't lead to abandonment of society and/or a creation of a dictatorship filled with even more problems, as flawed as capitalism is, it sure seems to work better overall than communism does long-term (See: Soviet Union, North Korea, China, Cuba ETC)

redwallzyl

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2392 on: May 04, 2018, 12:05:52 pm »

The problem remains, how to find a working system to replace it that doesn't lead to abandonment of society and/or a creation of a dictatorship filled with even more problems, as flawed as capitalism is, it sure seems to work better overall than communism does long-term (See: Soviet Union, North Korea, China, Cuba ETC)
Your thinking a bit to binary. Which is of course deliberately perpetuated by those that want to resist reform. The choice is not "Capitalism" vs "Communism." The reality is fixing things involves using what works and ideology be damned.
Logged

Doomblade187

  • Bay Watcher
  • Requires music to get through the working day.
    • View Profile
Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2393 on: May 04, 2018, 12:18:33 pm »

The problem remains, how to find a working system to replace it that doesn't lead to abandonment of society and/or a creation of a dictatorship filled with even more problems, as flawed as capitalism is, it sure seems to work better overall than communism does long-term (See: Soviet Union, North Korea, China, Cuba ETC)
Your thinking a bit to binary. Which is of course deliberately perpetuated by those that want to resist reform. The choice is not "Capitalism" vs "Communism." The reality is fixing things involves using what works and ideology be damned.
Ideological purity is not an effective strategy, as it shuts out debate and room for progress.
Logged
In any case it would be a battle of critical thinking and I refuse to fight an unarmed individual.
One mustn't stare into the pathos, lest one become Pathos.

scourge728

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2394 on: May 04, 2018, 12:49:43 pm »

Communism was just an example of a system people tried to replace capitalism, that keeps failing to work

SalmonGod

  • Bay Watcher
  • Nyarrr
    • View Profile
Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2395 on: May 04, 2018, 01:26:47 pm »

Communism was just an example of a system people tried to replace capitalism, that keeps failing to work

But keep in mind that all of the examples of communism that you pointed to were all generally part of a single global zeitgeist, and there were wars fought over it.  So you only know how communism turned out given examples from a single period, motivated by the influence of a very limited set of actors, and beset by violence intended to disrupt its formation, which further limits the example set to militaristic.  This is what you should consider even before reminding yourself that these ideologies aren't necessarily binary.

It's frustrating to have to always point this out to people.  Can we not reflect on the Cold War with hindsight, instead of parroting propaganda from 40+ years ago?

I agree 100% with MSH also...  I summarize it as simply that capitalism doesn't allow for any point where enough is enough.  It has to creep further and further into more and more aspects of life forever, applying more and more pressure on every aspect of existence forever until there is a breaking point and collapse.  Infinitely increasing demands for a growing majority of the population, with an infinitely shrinking minority seeing quality of life benefit.  And while someone will invariably point out human progress spurred by capitalism as leading to cooler smart phones, etc... there is more to quality of life than access to material goods, and the fact that so many people don't get this is a testament to how far gone we are.  I can have 20 ferraris sitting in my warehouse garage at home, a 100-inch quantum pixel tv with a million channels, and live disease free until age 200... it doesn't matter for shit if I spend 80% of my waking hours hopelessly languishing in a soul-crushing cubicle.  The details of the problems faced by every person will vary drastically, but it's this backdrop of increasingly universal flavor of life experience that makes people unable to cope with these problems.

And yeah... parenting is fucking depressing today.  It's hard for me to even think about how I've done as a parent, because when I think about how the pressures imposed on me by capitalism have translated into my failures as a parent and can see those failures realized in their development as they grow older... it's hard not to want to be the next mass shooter.  Just to fucking express the outrage and hopelessness somehow, and reinforce conversations like these about how fucked we are so that maybe someday humanity can get collectively fed up enough to try something different.  But I think the environment will collapse on everyone's heads first.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 01:30:01 pm by SalmonGod »
Logged
In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Shazbot

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2396 on: May 04, 2018, 01:37:36 pm »

The problem remains, how to find a working system to replace it that doesn't lead to abandonment of society and/or a creation of a dictatorship filled with even more problems, as flawed as capitalism is, it sure seems to work better overall than communism does long-term (See: Soviet Union, North Korea, China, Cuba ETC)
Your thinking a bit to binary. Which is of course deliberately perpetuated by those that want to resist reform. The choice is not "Capitalism" vs "Communism." The reality is fixing things involves using what works and ideology be damned.
Ideological purity is not an effective strategy, as it shuts out debate and room for progress.

What I'm reading is that men need to get careers and marry women, women need to focus on their children for at least the critical childhood years, children need to have summers to socialize with their parents and other children, and that...

The WW1 and WW2 mobilization of women into the workforce is no longer required in the developed world.

An unemployed wife is a housewife, an unemployed husband is a deadbeat. It is implicit that a mother who isn't employed is performing an equally or more important task, while a father who isn't employed is failing both his economic and familial obligations. I am fortunate to have been able to keep my wife at home with our children while I worked anything I could find. But for her to have spent the past ten precious years of mothering to do something an unemployed man or a robot could do is frankly a completely lost opportunity. We still talk about her getting a job as something we might consider after the kids go to college, even though we've only recently left the poverty line.

"Capitalism" and "Communism" do not dictate individual decision-making behavior. Social engineering does that, and the social engineers for "progress" have pushed women out of the home and into universities and careers which demand more and more time away from their children, if they have children, and pushing having children to later and less healthy ages. Liberated women do not require husbands and men do not require wives when surrounded by liberated women. Young men previously strove for good pay and stable jobs because young women sought a provider in a husband, and being a husband or at least a strong prospect was a requirement to be a lover. Now young men comb their hair and put on a nice shirt, take a selfie, and sit around swiping right. Young women previously controlled the behavior of young men through collective refusal and shaming those women who weakened their collective bargaining power. On the presumption of sexual empowerment, young women have lost their previous moral authority.

And when a woman has lost the flower of youth and realizes she wants a family after all, she has to compete with the 20-something who, by the cruel and unavoidable facts of the human condition, is more desirable by virtue of beauty to an older man who is himself more desirable by virtue of having grown up, put on a tie, and gotten a real job. Society has returned to young women marrying older men with money and childless spinsters, their spinning wheel replaced with a keyboard.

Progress was poorly named.

( I spend 80% of my waking hours in a cubicle because my grandfathers spent 80% of their waking hours in a coal mine. That's progress. )
Logged

Trekkin

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2397 on: May 04, 2018, 03:04:40 pm »

Progress was poorly named.

No, just incomplete, as ever it will be. Messy, too.

In probably the biggest social engineering project of our age, we're slowly, haltingly coming to terms with the idea that >99% of us are useless when compared to our machines and trying to figure out what a meaningful life looks like when we don't have a thing we need to do because only we can. One could say that we can no longer rely on the luxury of necessity and are trying to learn how to live without it.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 03:10:34 pm by Trekkin »
Logged

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2398 on: May 04, 2018, 03:13:56 pm »

I'm too busy to post a complete reply to all the great, wonderful walls of text that have been placed, but with what time I have, I must question whether seeking nuclear units is not merely trying to recreate a failed, incompatible unit which resulted in much of the problems today? Added to the absolute nightmare that would result from reverting to a pre-WW labour system.

Careers and children are not exclusionary choices, however much it is believed so. We won't make much in the way of meaningful progress if our only tools forwards are collective shaming from a mass collective that has proven it is incompetent at wielding such a crude tool in favour of any righteous or just cause; individual prejudices add up to ensure it is used selectively against some, but not against others, for the same apparent social transgressions.

If you did by some political deal with the devil ban or de facto obstruct women from entering the workforce, for what good does this occur? Stay at home parents are obsolete; both parents should ideally be present in their children's lives, with an attendant army of uncles, aunts, cousins and grandparents ;P
Having one parent entirely in the workplace and another parent entirely idle at home, with technology of modern convenience having rendered stay at homeness obsolete, is not a healthy change from today's broken units into the broken unit of yesteryear.

The three biggest obstacles would simply be imo:
  • Young couples cannot afford to rear a family, in many ways held back by conceptions of the nuclear family. Young people will not found a family if they do not have their own home and stable income, fighting an economic race against the biological clock.
  • Fertility - as said before, pollution, diet, skinny jeans, age and lap electronics, buggering both women and men; I don't think there's ever been a recorded period in history where entire populations started becoming sterile in their youth.
  • Strong commercial and societal pressures towards young people to be eternal consumerist children who die young, for whom stable relationships are anchors holding them back, for whom having children are a disgusting parasitic end to their lives.
Ideological purity is not an effective strategy, as it shuts out debate and room for progress.
Whatever works, works

The all-consuming lust to have money for money’s sake, rather than to have money to improve your lot in life, sure  Isnt helping th stability of modern society- quite the opposite in fact.
The concentration of this mentality in all of our corporate and state institutions middle to higher and highest authorities is rather worrying. Our permanent plutocratic countrymen see themselves as citizens of the world, with no obligation to help their fellow man, instead helping themselves to ever-increasing consolidation of control, to reshape the world in their ideal image. Fitting that we are all individuals bound by no ties of loyalty, only state enforced obligations - even now I cannot write what I wish because I am obligated by deadlines :P

FallacyofUrist

  • Bay Watcher
  • Blatant furry. Also a hypnotist.
    • View Profile
Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2399 on: May 04, 2018, 03:47:31 pm »

After reading through the recent pages, I'm so glad I was homeschooled.
Logged
FoU has some twisted role ideas. Screw second-guessing this mechanical garbage spaghetti, I'm basing everything on reads and visible daytime behaviour.

Would you like to play a game of Mafia? The subforum is always open to new players.
Pages: 1 ... 158 159 [160] 161 162 ... 295