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[helmacon]

I don't know where you're getting this idea that you don't have to comply with police. You most definitely do. It's the same reason you have to provide identification when asked. That sovereign citizen bullshit is bullshit. You have to comply with police. It's the law, and it's the foundation of a lawful society.

And in any situation where it is believed that a suspect may have a gun, you should be in fear for your life. It only takes a second to get shot. Police officers get shot all the time.

[helmacon]

-snip-

So you're saying with a straight face that a blubbering fat man crawling toward him on the man's own orders was rightly perceived as a deadly threat? Again, if he honestly thought so, then Short Man syndrome here shouldn't be allowed to handle a fork, let alone his bubba'd out tactikewl AR along with essentially free rein to use it. And again, why the Simon Says bullshit instead of just cuffing them as quickly as possible while they were on the ground like literally every other SWAT team in America is trained to do?

Yes. Do you not understand how guns work? I don't care how "scared" he looks, he could kill you in a second if he has a gun. The whole situation is terrifying.

And the orders were because they didn't have view of the door, and didn't want to expose themselves while simultaneously handling two suspects. 

FYI, i gtg so this is probably my last response for noew

[Strife26]

Fun fact: people deployed to actual combat zones face stricter scrutiny for force escalation than do stateside cops. 

[SalmonGod]

It's the law, and it's the foundation of a lawful society.

Sure... so long as lawful has nothing to do with safer or more ethical.

When police are trained to do anything they can to avoid danger to themselves, even if it means killing a suspect, that makes society more dangerous for everyone except police.  Because innocent people need to fear for harm from criminals and police, instead of just criminals.  If police don't want to put themselves in danger, they can not sign up for the job.  Because otherwise, we are better off without them.  I would rather face a violent criminal than a power tripping or spooked cop, because at least I have the opportunity to defend myself against a criminal.

And it feels ridiculous to even have to explain why being legally forced to comply with all police orders in all situations regardless of legality or reason is flat out wrong.  Even without the point that it's an expectation that gets people who are deaf, having seizures, mentally disabled, etc hurt or killed often enough.

Edit:

Ok yeah... I just made the mistake of watching that video.  That guy was clearly terrified to the point of stupidity and even looked physically weak and near passing out from fear in those last few seconds, and the officer shouting orders was totally callous and made it as difficult as possible for him.  He was shocked, then intimidated to the point of tears.  Then given 3 separate instructions about body positioning that were counter-intuitive in combination (cross legs/hands up/crawl), and repeatedly shocked into panic when screamed at about how he would lose one position when trying to comply with the one most recently screamed at him.  When someone thinks "crawl", they normally imagine using their hands.  And this is after he was screamed at for uncrossing his legs when rising to kneeling, and then not told he could uncross them when instructed to crawl.  When you're in the kind of emotional state that guy was clearly in, it's not reasonable to expect the level of focus necessary to work through that mess out of an average person.  And they killed him for it.

I wouldn't call it murder.  But I would call it stupid, cowardly, and unfit for the job.  And I'd say that if the officer hasn't shown any genuine signs of remorse and making amends, that he deserves to be shunned by the people in his life.  When I see things like this, even after so goddamn many, it leaves me shaking livid for hours, and wondering how the fuck anyone can still call police on mere suspicion of something without considering the likelihood that their doing so will result in the deaths of undeserving people.

[Rolan7]

I think there's some miscommunication here.  Of course you shouldn't have to obey *any* order from an officer.  But assuming they're operating by the book, giving reasonable orders, you're required to obey those.

As for police taking on personal risk or not signing up in the first place, I don't think it's black and white (...no pun intended, ugh.)  They're paid only a bit more than teachers, not enough to justify suicidal pacifism.  Even if they were, they shouldn't just let dangerous people escape to potentially do more harm.  But they should also be held accountable for wrongfully escalating.  Civilians are often going to act irrationally in the heat of the moment - the cop is likely scared too, but has training for that.  Not as much as I'd like, but more than the civilian.

But, pff, if you really prefer your odds at gunpoint of some untrained gangbanger...  No trigger discipline, something to prove, and no WEEKS of internal investigation and trial-by-press if someone dies?  k

[Urist McScoopbeard]

I mean... how can it happen so often though? I think we can all admit, the amount of shootings which are clearly avoidable is suspect. SOMETHING has to change. I'm not saying we need to execute these people (although, frankly, some of them should be), but restrictions need to be tightened, reforms need to be pushed through, training needs to be expanded.

It's embarrassing. For every person dead, ten times that number of lives are ruined forever. It's off the chain--there are basically no repercussions for a shocking amount of officers involved in these incidents.

[SalmonGod]

If a criminal has me at gunpoint, it's extremely unlikely that it's because their goal is to kill me.  If that is their goal... they have me at gunpoint.  Goal most likely achieved.  If police were not already present to prevent me from ending up at gunpoint, then it's extremely unlikely that they'll prevent the criminal from achieving his goal of killing me.  If police show up after I am at gunpoint, I am likely to get shot along with the criminal as soon as something happens that spooks the police, because they place their own safety above mine and/or because they are horribly uninformed about the situation and consider me equally suspect as the criminal.

If the criminal's goal is not to kill me, then they can be reasoned with and given what they want.  They are much more likely to face consequence for killing me than a police officer does, so it's in their best interest to get what they want without doing so.  The police officer is trained that it is in their best interest to kill me if I do not comply with orders (which as we just saw can easily be a troublesome thing), do anything unexpected, or otherwise make them feel for the briefest moment like I am a danger or intend to be a danger to them.  And they are trained to be better at killing me than the criminal is.

And if I do successfully survive violence from a police officer, in any way other than utterly passive suffering and immense luck, then my life is ruined afterwards anyway.

[Rolan7]

You're bringing up a criminal who wants to murder you.  That's unlikely (I hope.  I mean, I've met people with stories...).

I was going off the more common scenarios where neither the cop nor criminal are out to commit a murder.  And yet murder is a very real possibility due to lack of training.  Given the choice, I'd rather be threatened by the incompletely trained police officer who will have to fill out SO much paperwork, and likely never work in the field again they make a mistake.  Rather than someone who hasn't gone through an academy for this situation.

There's such a stupid disconnect here.

[SalmonGod]

You're bringing up a criminal who wants to murder you.  That's unlikely (I hope.  I mean, I've met people with stories...).

I was going off the more common scenarios where neither the cop nor criminal are out to commit a murder.  And yet murder is a very real possibility due to lack of training.  Given the choice, I'd rather be threatened by the incompletely trained police officer who will have to fill out SO much paperwork, and likely never work in the field again they make a mistake.  Rather than someone who hasn't gone through an academy for this situation.

There's such a stupid disconnect here.

I described my thoughts on both scenarios.  Like... pretty clearly.

And yeah... paperwork.  Recall that I necro'd this thread a couple days ago with a story where they literally joked about it after shooting someone.  I don't know where you get the idea that they'll likely never work in the field again.  And the likelihood of facing legal consequence is vanishingly slim.

2016 CNN article from a quick search said that at the time, only 77 officers had been charged with anything related to shooting a suspect, and 26 convicted of anything since 2005.  That's out of 15,394 fatal shootings recorded by FatalEncounters for years 2005-2015. 

And there is no data on how many non-fatal shootings there are.  Some quick looking around shows the survival rate for a gunshot wound is somewhere between 70-80%.  I'd be really interested in seeing how the mortality rate when being shot at by police compares to that, considering how many fatal shooting stories involve officers neglecting or refusing medical attention to the people they shoot.  To have an 80% survival rate with 15,394 fatal incidents, U.S. police would be shooting 7,700 people a year in those 10 years.

[Egan_BW]

Can we make police carry around big metal shields rather than guns? I think I'd prefer being defended with a shield than with a gun.
The best defence is a good offence. But I'd prefer if the people paid to defend me made a goal of making as few holes as possible doing that thanks.

[Descan]

Granted, I don't know about the handguns they're most likely to encounter, but modern *rifles* at least are far too powerful for any metal shield that you could actually carry around (or, more likely, wear as armour) and still accomplish your job as a police officer.

There's a reason metal armour and shields went away as guns got more powerful, and modern firearms are more powerful still.

[Egan_BW]

^{_{fucking guns ruin everything. aught to have stuck with spears and bows.}}

[Frumple]

Pretty sure we just have better materials to use than most metals, these days, if you really want to indulge in that route. Want to say there's something or another like that occasionally used during breaching actions.

Frankly, I'd lay good odds your bigger barrier than effectiveness would be cost, though. Handgun's goddamn cheap, bullets cost less than many different sorts of food, bullet proof or resistant much of anything generally... less so. Plus I hear the paperwork and admin procedures and whatnot for killing someone is at times less onerous than having to process someone not slated for the morgue, so less lethal just means higher costs for generally already underfunded precincts even if you discount any difference in outfitting costs. Fiscally it's arguable there's much incentive to substantially disarm, basically.

[nenjin]

I love how the police chief basically called the problem out without realizing he'd done so:

(paraphrasing) "The officer was following his training. Now, maybe there's an issue with training but that's a separate discussion. All I'm saying is he was following his training and shouldn't be penalized for following the book."

Exactly. If you're training police to shoot first and ask questions later so they can be sure to return to their families at night.......yes, your fucking training is the exact issue we need to tackle.

Because the only time I think it's acceptable for an officer to do that is if someone else's life is under direct threat as they're standing there. If it's the cop's life....I'm sorry, unless he's actually pointing a gun at you, the chance of being wounded in the line of duty is part of the fucking job. If you can't handle that level of stress, and are willing to just draw down on the merest hint of anything that scares you.....turn in your badge and your gun and go work an office job. You don't have the nerves or the stomach for the job. If you're not willing to take a bullet as a police officer to be on the right side of the law, I don't want you enforcing law in my town.

[Egan_BW]

The question is if there's enough people who are actually that selfless to hire, and if we can pay them enough to not shoot up everything at the slightest provocation.