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[smeeprocket]

That post pretty much supports the whole "Europeans are racist against the Roma" to the point where I just couldn't finish it.

Really, do you have any sort of data on theft based on race at all? Do you really feel it is justifiable to dislike outsiders or not trust them? Personally, I'm going to be evenhanded in my dislike and trust, and it will not be related to social caste, race, or being outside of my culture.

Our cops -don't- have to face more and more violent blacks. That is not a black thing. That is the point, these people were nonviolent. How hard is that to understand?

You are pretending like you want social change while clinging to stereotypes and bigoted thought.

Honestly, every liberal and poor person in America is already aware that the American Dream is dead. You are not revealing anything shocking or new to me, and most people don't believe in it. It belongs to the conservatives, to justify hating people that aren't wealthy, because they are "takers" and are somehow inherently immoral and lazy.

The many many deaths we are talking about are in the majority black people. This doesn't happen to white people.Therefore, trying to get the cops to be less violent might result in less white deaths, but that hate is still going to be present for black people. That is, in fact, the current situation. Therefore, we do have to do something about extracting the racists from our forces. That needs to be a primary goal, you are trivializing it when it is the overwhelming contributor towards the problem.

Is it just me, or is it very frustrating to have someone who doesn't understand the inner workings of your culture try to explain to you why you are wrong about what will and will not be effective. Especially when they can not grasp the difference in key issues like how not all racists are white supremacists or even consciously racist.

How can you know if race is the issue or if it needs to be handled the most directly when you do not have an understanding of how racism works and the effects it has on our society.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The many many deaths we are talking about are in the majority black people. This doesn't happen to white people.Therefore, trying to get the cops to be less violent might result in less white deaths, but that hate is still going to be present for black people.

Uh, that doesn't follow. If cop violence is directed entirely towards black people, and then cop violence is reduced, then the sole beneficiary of the violence reduction is....black people.

[smeeprocket]

The many many deaths we are talking about are in the majority black people. This doesn't happen to white people.Therefore, trying to get the cops to be less violent might result in less white deaths, but that hate is still going to be present for black people.

Uh, that doesn't follow. If cop violence is directed entirely towards black people, and then cop violence is reduced, then the sole beneficiary of the violence reduction is....black people.

as long as the bigotry is there, no training is going to reduce that violence significantly, because the cops inherently perceive all black people as subhuman and dangerous threats that must be handled with maximum force.

You might be able to reign them in with white people and such, but the racism will block progress with black people.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The many many deaths we are talking about are in the majority black people. This doesn't happen to white people.Therefore, trying to get the cops to be less violent might result in less white deaths, but that hate is still going to be present for black people.

Uh, that doesn't follow. If cop violence is directed entirely towards black people, and then cop violence is reduced, then the sole beneficiary of the violence reduction is....black people.

as long as the bigotry is there, no training is going to reduce that violence significantly, because the cops inherently perceive all black people as subhuman and dangerous threats that must be handled with maximum force.

You might be able to reign them in with white people and such, but the racism will block progress with black people.

In that case, can you demonstrate proof that racism is mentally insurmountable? Because for this argument to work, that must be the case, and racism must come before all other considerations in a cop's mind if training has no effect.

[smeeprocket]

Frankly, most of the issues stem from a self-perpetuating class division. When you put a majority of a group into a certain class, stereotypes perpetuate both within and without that group concerning their class. Those stereotypes, as a result, force that group even more-so into that class, creating a cycle of... well, exactly where we are now.

The real battle here is class divisions- the greater the stratification, the worse the racism. Hell, studies have been done to show that when tasked with something that a particular person is stereotyped against, they will do worse than otherwise. The study that I can recall that showed this did a test with two groups- one white, one black. The task they were given was a simple golf game. Both groups were split in half. One half was told that the game was based on academic skill, and the other on athletic skill. In the case of the black group, those told that it was athletic did better than those told it was academic, despite it being the same task. For the white group, it was the other way around. To say the least, the whole thing is self-perpetuating. External stereotypes create internal stereotypes that reinforce the external stereotypes. Class divisions create the basis for these external stereotypes.

If the racism is self-perpetuating, but the basis of it isn't, why not battle the basis? If we can work towards removing economic stratification, we might be able to combat racism at the source- income inequality.

I think you misjudge the difficulty of narrowing the class divide in my country.

There is an entire party, and half of another party, actively working against that. I think it would be easier to try and dispel racism outright than to combat that class divide, though obviously it should all be done together.

Like the class divide is getting worse here by a significant degree, and it looks like it will continue to get even worse, with a shrinking middle class and rising costs of living and a ridiculously rich 1% that uses their money to move politics in their favor. They are also fighting to keep cutting education, enforce things like teaching intelligent design, continue funding for schools that teach creationism and other backwards and unfounded beliefs.

They know what they are doing, keeping people poor and uneducated with a dark skinned bad guy to blame their problems on is really effective.

It's bad here. Things are getting worse. Both parties are perpetuating more of the same.

I think fixing racism would actually be easier than fixing the class divide, and no I'm not at all saying racism would be even remotely an east fix. I think, however, that it absolutely has to be a serious part of any efforts to change things. (Which doesn't seem possible, since the people in power want more of the same.)

[SaberToothTiger]

Just posting one of my small thoughts -- things like Ferguson, Wilson and all that shit don't really happen in Europe. Like, I think it has to do with the police carrying firearms and being allowed to use them in a situation that doesn't require those.

[Rolan7]

I was trying to dig up statistics to confirm or deny these constant (unsupported) accusations of racial bias, but I'm at my wit's end.  The problem is covered well in this fine CNN article:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/02/politics/kristoff-oreilly-police-shooting-numbers-fact-check/

Basically, the departments are self-reporting if at all.  That's crazy and should be fixed.  I think this has already come up in the thread, but it bears reiterating.

Much like the Ferguson trial which never happened (due to bewildering mishandling of the grand jury) we just don't have the data to properly analyze for widespread racism in police behavior.  No wonder people are arguing with personal anecdotes, hypotheticals, and "common knowledge".

This lack of data is a serious indicator that there IS a problem of some sort (or many problems!), being covered up.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There was a inciteful (sic) rant here.  It's gone now (:

[Zangi]

TLDR

Culture, media and shit generally portrays black folk as prone to criminality.  This portrayal is prevalent in Murica(where all this shit is going down), especially its police force.  Yes, even black people have a tendency to believe other black people they don't know are more likely prone to criminality.


Murican cops have very little outside checks and balances for when they do commit crimesthings wrong.  There may be home-grown mentality of us(cops) versus them(everyone else) within localized police culture.  Investigations tend to be 'internal', not by an outside entity... so wrong-doing can be covered-up brushed to the side.
People are taught that they should always believe in authority, they are doing what is best for you after all.  There may even be tacit approval by courts/prosecutors within the same jurisdiction...

[aenri]

Really, do you have any sort of data on theft based on race at all? Do you really feel it is justifiable to dislike outsiders or not trust them? Personally, I'm going to be evenhanded in my dislike and trust, and it will not be related to social caste, race, or being outside of my culture.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

    "Back in the 50s the Roma criminality was specific problem - especially theft of small domestic animals, illegal trade and retail fraud. Share of Roma in other property and especially violent crime (robbery, burglary, assault and battery, rape, murder) increased with urbanization, especially with all the criminogenic factors. Social changes after November caused the Roma as poorly assimilated group, particularly noticeable relative increase in delinquency. By Bukovčák (1987), the proportion of Roma in general crime has risen by the year. 1976 14.5%, in 1980 16.8% and 1985 19.4%. Share of Roma in Robbery (in the period) increased by 100% to 58.4%, assault 48.6%, 42.5% sexual abuse, rape 32.2%, 20.2% of hooliganism, theft 31.6%, burglary 31.2%. In more recent, post-revolutionary data from eastern Slovakia (Turok, 1991), the proportion of Roma in general crime was 45.5%, for violent crime - 37.6%, 79.5% for robbery, rape 44.4%, bodily injury 33.3%, for the murder 50%. "
    "A special chapter in the state of registered crime poses in Czechoslovakia recently been increasingly discussed issue of Roma crime. Of the 85,880 known offenders prosecuted in 1990 for offenses, the accused were 11,594 members of the Roma ethnic group, accounting for 13.5%. Increase compared to 1989 is not significant (2.1%). The negative is the increase in the proportion of Roma in juvenile crime and the impact of alcohol on crime Roma, especially in the Slovak Republic.
    Literally alarming, however, data on the proportion of Roma in the commission of certain serious crimes. The most serious is this information regarding the offense of robbery under § 234 of the Penal Code, in which Roma contribute 50.8%. In the Czech Republic, this share is 43.1% (in Prague, an increase of 130%), the Slovak Republic, Roma are involved in the offense of robbery by 61.3%. High is also the share of the crimes of rape (24.7%), theft (19.1%), homicide (13.5%) and others. These figures are alarming especially since the present share of the Roma ethnic group in the total population is not nearly as significant as the expected increase in this share in the future. "

This figures are from google translated http://sk.metapedia.org/wiki/Rasa_a_kriminalita#Slovensko with a source there. Also this was the case in 1989-1991 and it only got worse from then. Also we don't really have any newer statistics because it is unconstitutional to be gathering crime statistics on certain ethnic groups.

Well as I am from Slovakia (and from Eastern Slovakia to boot!) so this affects me on a pretty deep level, 50% of murders in Eastern Slovakia in 1991 were commited by gypsies and they constituted almost 2% of the whole population at that time, so that means I am going to be extremely careful about them, considering the chance to be killed by them is 49 times higher (did I math that right?) than by non-gypsy.

[Phmcw]

That post pretty much supports the whole "Europeans are racist against the Roma" to the point where I just couldn't finish it.

Because you call racism things that are not. You have your head burried as far in the sand as your run the mill republican.

If you implement the right policies, you can statistically diminish the criminality among a group of peoples and incrase the education, I think that we agree on that.
As colonisation and pretty much every occupation campain before has shown, you can also destroy the social structure of a group of peoples and reduce them to misery, and that create lasting damage in their society, with incrased criminality, decrased education, and lasting distrust of outsiders. One of the ways to do that is to segregate against them durably and systematically kill and supress their leaders. Displacing them work very well and was employed by Stalin with great success, forced conversion is a classic, changing their language and exacerbing ethnic and religious conflicts are extremely efficient too.
But just immigrating to a new place "en masse" and working low wage job will have a considerabe negative impact on any group of peoples, and you can only hope that their social structures will hold on then blend in.


I don't see how you can deny any of the above if you ever glanced at history, and half of our policies are based on that. That's pretty much what justify our "welfare states" and the money we're sinking in the "banlieues" and our multiple integration policies.


Population as Gypsies have been on the wrong end of the stick for quite a while and their social structure IS considerably damaged. And for black america, well, I'm sure you're informed of the hardship they faced. In neither case you can expect a criminality and education rate statistically comparable to the rest of the population, no more than you can exepct able to fly toward the sky.
If you want to reduce it, raise your sleeves and get your wallet out, because it will take money, work and time to repaire the injustice of history.

Btw you're wrong on something else, mostly. The american dream is still alive, it's just that since the fall of the nobility and of the last emprors, it's nothing special anymore, you can do it in Europe too, and more easily.

And lastly, from this article

Last year, in total, British police officers actually fired their weapons three times. The number of people fatally shot was zero. In 2012 the figure was just one. Even after adjusting for the smaller size of Britain’s population, British citizens are around 100 times less likely to be shot by a police officer than Americans.

Another comparison? Germany?

there were eight fatalities in the past two years and 109 deaths by service weapons in Germany since 1998.

Let's take only white peoples shooting, shall we? The (self reported is this supposed to be some kind of joke?) statistics available tell us that there has been 326 white peoples killed in America last years. Let's take the entire population of america (316,1 millions) and divide it by Germany's (80.62 millions)  and it's great, you can see that you're still more than 20 times more likely to be shot by the police than a German EVEN IF YOU DON'T COUNT ANY BLACK PEOPLES KILLED. Do you understand you've got a police problem now?

[Bohandas]

The many many deaths we are talking about are in the majority black people. This doesn't happen to white people.Therefore, trying to get the cops to be less violent might result in less white deaths, but that hate is still going to be present for black people.

Uh, that doesn't follow. If cop violence is directed entirely towards black people, and then cop violence is reduced, then the sole beneficiary of the violence reduction is....black people.

Well it's like the difference between a shaped charge versus an ordinary bomb containing an equal quantity of explosives. Racist police are the shaped charge, its explosive force is directed mostly in a single direction, leaving objects and people positioned in other directions relative to it comparatively unscathed; non racist police are the conventional bomb, which is undirected and damages everything around it, albeit without damaging any particular person or thing quite to the extent that the target of the shaped charge was damaged.

[Rolan7]

Certain communities have a lot of overt criminality.  These same communities tend to be racially homogenous.  Look at this cultural gem which is still sung by kids to this day, here in North Carolina (the song is about nearby Tennessee)

Once two strangers climbed on Rocky Top,
Lookin' for a moonshine still.
Strangers ain't come back from Rocky Top,
Guess they never will.

Dead DEA investigators, wooo.

Some places are flat out hostile to cops.  "They're the enemy, you know?"  "Snitches get stitches." "Out to get us."  "Why shouldn't we fight back?"  "Did you hear they shot another one of us the other day?"  If some cop pulls *me* over I'll make him sorry."

Same shit, different communities.  And it's not a matter of blame, these places are stuck in vicious cycles.  Because the cops do treat these places different (because they're different) and that just reinforces the animosity on both sides.

The most obvious problem isn't racism, it's poverty-induced territoriality.  Which hopefully can be fixed through education and social welfare.  Maybe racism is a factor too, but nobody's really arguing that... Just assuming and complaining about it.  Partially because the data is painfully limited, but still.

[Phmcw]

The many many deaths we are talking about are in the majority black people. This doesn't happen to white people.Therefore, trying to get the cops to be less violent might result in less white deaths, but that hate is still going to be present for black people.

Uh, that doesn't follow. If cop violence is directed entirely towards black people, and then cop violence is reduced, then the sole beneficiary of the violence reduction is....black people.

Well it's like the difference between a shaped charge versus an ordinary bomb containing an equal quantity of explosives. Racist police are the shaped charge, its explosive force is directed mostly in a single direction, leaving objects and people positioned in other directions relative to it comparatively unscathed; non racist police are the conventional bomb, which is undirected and damages everything around it, albeit without damaging any particular person or thing as much as the target of the shaped charge was.

Well to finish this analogy, I'd say that since it's in a nursery, it doesn't matter that much and DEFUSE THE FUCKING BOMB!

[Bohandas]

Also, ethnic and racial relations could also be improved by an aggressive program of mutual cultural appropriation. If we had more Tiger Woodses and Eminems then black people and white people wpupdn't seem so different and would eventually get along better.

EDIT:
Another good example of the kind of thing I'm aiming for is the way that Christmas is widely celebrated in Japan despite the fact that almost nobody there is Christian there. What they've done with christmas is what we need to do with all major aspects of all other cultures.

[Bohandas]

The many many deaths we are talking about are in the majority black people. This doesn't happen to white people.Therefore, trying to get the cops to be less violent might result in less white deaths, but that hate is still going to be present for black people.

Uh, that doesn't follow. If cop violence is directed entirely towards black people, and then cop violence is reduced, then the sole beneficiary of the violence reduction is....black people.

Well it's like the difference between a shaped charge versus an ordinary bomb containing an equal quantity of explosives. Racist police are the shaped charge, its explosive force is directed mostly in a single direction, leaving objects and people positioned in other directions relative to it comparatively unscathed; non racist police are the conventional bomb, which is undirected and damages everything around it, albeit without damaging any particular person or thing as much as the target of the shaped charge was.

Well to finish this analogy, I'd say that since it's in a nursery, it doesn't matter that much and DEFUSE THE FUCKING BOMB!

Apologies. I misread one of the eariler quotes in the tree. Phmcw's point is indeed the point that I was trying to make.

I had misread the quote above mine about speculating about the scope of the repurcussions if "cop violence is directed entirely towards black people, and then racism is reduced.
Sorry if that was ambiguous.