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[Leafsnail]

If you're not white supremacist, I don't see why you'd go around killing black peoples.

The actual motivation is more likely to be the stereotype that most black people are violent and will lash out unpredictably with animalistic strength.  Read Darren Wilson's testimony, it's very much on display there with how he describes a pudgy teenager as being akin to Hulk Hogan.  There's no reason why black officers could not also buy into this stereotype when they're part of the same racist police culture.

[Baffler]

If you're not white supremacist, I don't see why you'd go around killing black peoples.

The actual motivation is more likely to be the stereotype that most black people are violent and will lash out unpredictably with animalistic strength.  Read Darren Wilson's testimony, it's very much on display there with how he describes a pudgy teenager as being akin to Hulk Hogan.  There's no reason why black officers could not also buy into this stereotype when they're part of the same racist police culture.

He also has solid reasons to make his actions sound as justified as he possibly can.

[Leafsnail]

That's true, but the fact that people actually bought it (and similar stories about other black victims of police officers) shows that the stereotype does exist.

[smeeprocket]

it is entirely possible to be racist against one's own race.

As if the most likely senario was that black cops in the US are white supremacist... that's simply ridiculous at that point.

that would frankly be a goddamn coup and a major improvement.

You can, you'll just need a major education boost across every social class in America, less social divide so peoples don't go looking for scapgegoat, a major boost to the average Black american wealth and education so that the stereotype lose all ground in reality and while you're at it proportional representation across all institutions. Don't forget that all area should be mixed race and you should therefore make black only and white only neighborhood disapear at all cost.


Be my guest, I'm just watching.


At that point you'll just have a trigger happy "police" force that still doesn't serve its purpose and still cannot be held accountable for anything, but will stop targeting black men disproportionally.

It's like you are just making up arguments for racism.

No it will never change and it has to be like this, or you know, as penguin of honor (satirically) posted, the cops will just shoot more white people.

Like there's actually a quota.

I feel like you don't know what racism is (despite evidence that you suffer from it.) White supremacists are very different than your run of the mill racists.

A black person being racist would be akin to a woman suffering from internalized sexism. It happens regularly enough to be a problem.

Also a lot of your suggestions give me the impression that you think that black people contribute to their own stereotypes. Which is wrong. That's not how racism works. It deals heavily with confirmation bias, so even if you had a majority of upper class black people, a racist would see one poor black family with a father that is absent and would just keep thinking that stereotype was a real thing. Hell even if every single black person was ridiculously rich, racists would still hold on to their stereotypes.

But I don't understand entirely what your point is, other than to argue we should ignore racism because it is of no consequence or not fixable (or both) and that you erroneously think that the majority of black people killed by the cops are killed by black police officers. That is not statistically possible due to the very small number of black cops.

[Bohandas]

If you're not white supremacist, I don't see why you'd go around killing black peoples.

White supremicist is consciously and explicitly racist.

You can also be subconsciously racist. You might think someone looks sketchy or dangerous and not realize that their skin color played a part in that perception until you think about it later, or if you're not the introspective type you might not realize it at all.

You'd do well to remember Hanlon's Razor:
"Never attribute to malice what can be adequetely explained by ignorance"

[smirk]

There is a notable, and often fairly extreme, difference between racist and white supremacist.

If you're not white supremacist, I don't see why you'd go around killing black peoples.

Might want to brush up on your definitions. Short version: all white supremacy is racism, but not all racism is white supremacy (wikipedia links for more reading). You don't hafta believe that the (Aryan/Nordic/Hiberno-Gallic) ethnicity should rule to feel that brown people are all sneaky.

On a wider note, I'd say that racism, corruption and abuse are all pretty heavily intertwined at this point. A racist person is more likely to bend or break rules to hurt the group they despise, and participating in many corrupt activities (extortion, unlawful arrest, etc) requires seeing the target as more of an object than a person. Trying to solve only one part, or even focusing mostly on just one part, is going to miss a lot and be far less effective as a result.

E: ninja'd many, many times. Posting anyway.

[Bohandas]

 Perhaps more presaing than racism or negative police culture is simply that dealing with criminals all the time is eventually going to make you paranoid and if you're paranoid you're eventually goint to do something stupid.

[smeeprocket]

it just happens massively more often with people they engage with that are black, as opposed to white.

That is really the issue. There are other underlying factors, but the victims are overwhelmingly more likely to be black.

You can't cut that out of the equation because it's very much a part of it.

There are also police officers that would shoot an unarmed person regardless of color, that are paranoid and unstable in general, etc etc, but the amount of victims that are black very clearly states that this is a race issue above all the others. It's not that those others don't exist, they are just drowned out by the unmitigated bigotry of the police.

[Sheb]

Keep in mind Ph is Belgian. Seen from here, the shocking fact is not that so many black people are shot, but that so many people overall are shot. Sure, the number of killed black is huge, while the number of killed white is merely large, but the race angle is not the first thing we notice.

[smeeprocket]

I suspect other countries are just as racist, they just have significantly less targets to point their ignorance at.

Or the targets of ignorance are an altogether different race. I hear arabs are particularly despised in Europe (people here treat them like shit too, so I'm not getting on any sort of high horse.) Also, gypsies. There is an inordinate amount of hate towards gypsies.

[smjjames]

I suspect other countries are just as racist, they just have significantly less targets to point their ignorance at.

Or the targets of ignorance are an altogether different race. I hear arabs are particularly despised in Europe (people here treat them like shit too, so I'm not getting on any sort of high horse.) Also, gypsies. There is an inordinate amount of hate towards gypsies.

I thought that was mostly Islamophobia?

[Levi]

In Canada we've got a fair bit of racism against natives/first nations.

[Phmcw]

This is the study that say that 78% of the peoples shot by black officiers are black. I never meant that 78% of all black men killed were killed by black officers.

Might want to brush up on your definitions. Short version: all white supremacy is racism, but not all racism is white supremacy (wikipedia links for more reading). You don't hafta believe that the (Aryan/Nordic/Hiberno-Gallic) ethnicity should rule to feel that brown people are all sneaky.

I said white supremacism because that's the one racism that you can fight on the ideological ground (and its variant). If the officier are simply used to have harsher interaction with the black community, but do not actually hold any racist  beliefs, then were're back at the training point. Sensitivity, desecalation, proper rules of engagement, and simply the requirement to identify the threath with reasonable certitude (much, much higher than it is now) are all normal things that all police force should do, and will solve that problem. 

White supremicist is consciously and explicitly racist.

You can also be subconsciously racist. You might think someone looks sketchy or dangerous and not realize that their skin color played a part in that perception until you think about it later, or if you're not the introspective type you might not realize it at all.

You'd do well to remember Hanlon's Razor:
"Never attribute to malice what can be adequetely explained by ignorance"

You cannot get rid of it entirely, but no police force in the world are immune to it. The rules of engagement must be strict enough so that it cannot be a factor.
That and a bunch of training to identify, and avoid that behavior.

It's like you are just making up arguments for racism.

No it will never change and it has to be like this, or you know, as penguin of honor (satirically) posted, the cops will just shoot more white people.

Like there's actually a quota.

I said : your police force suck and is dangerous for everyone as it it. Yeah, I stand by it.

A black person being racist would be akin to a woman suffering from internalized sexism. It happens regularly enough to be a problem.

Yes and no. That is a subconscious bia and have nothing to do with ideology. That's not the same approach, cause and solution.
There are trainings for that but that's not really a root problem, just an effect of either the medias or Pavlovian response.

Also a lot of your suggestions give me the impression that you think that black people contribute to their own stereotypes. Which is wrong. That's not how racism works. It deals heavily with confirmation bias, so even if you had a majority of upper class black people, a racist would see one poor black family with a father that is absent and would just keep thinking that stereotype was a real thing. Hell even if every single black person was ridiculously rich, racists would still hold on to their stereotypes.

Really?
Silly European then, we've been trying for years to build school in poor area, to make violence prevention campain, make college acessible for anyone regardless of income or race and make urbain improvement programs and it was all for naught?

Please tell me more about your magical getthos that allowed a population that have equal rights in the law for about 50 years (if that) to overcome its problem and to have a criminality comparable to the rest of the country. Please do because despite everything we've done, the desendant of the Italian immigration wave in Belgium, that came to work and always have a job, still suffer from lower education, wealth and elevated criminality compared to the initial Belgian, and they (we) came 50 years ago.


It's funny, too because Belgians (and non Belgians) seems systematically racist against the most impoverished ethnicity and not the darkest one. As if, you knew, race doesn't matter and confirmation bias was just a factor in racism. When my mother came it was against Italians, and now it's moslty against Morrocan, my Congolese friends having almost never encountered racism (the congolese community isn't especially poor and is rather well connected).

[smeeprocket]

I suspect other countries are just as racist, they just have significantly less targets to point their ignorance at.

Or the targets of ignorance are an altogether different race. I hear arabs are particularly despised in Europe (people here treat them like shit too, so I'm not getting on any sort of high horse.) Also, gypsies. There is an inordinate amount of hate towards gypsies.

I thought that was mostly Islamophobia?

yea bigots don't really differentiate between targets. Like if you really hate Muslims, and a Sikh walks by, you aren't going to stop and go "no man, he's got a turban and a sword, he's cool with me" you are going to see everything you hate. The skin color, the arabic features, the outfit being at all arabic, I mean a bigot isn't going to take the time to differentiate between different fashions in the arabic world or know what christian arabs are wearing this season. He's just looking for anyone different to hate on.

[XXSockXX]

I suspect other countries are just as racist, they just have significantly less targets to point their ignorance at.

Or the targets of ignorance are an altogether different race. I hear arabs are particularly despised in Europe (people here treat them like shit too, so I'm not getting on any sort of high horse.) Also, gypsies. There is an inordinate amount of hate towards gypsies.

I thought that was mostly Islamophobia?

yea bigots don't really differentiate between targets. Like if you really hate Muslims, and a Sikh walks by, you aren't going to stop and go "no man, he's got a turban and a sword, he's cool with me" you are going to see everything you hate. The skin color, the arabic features, the outfit being at all arabic, I mean a bigot isn't going to take the time to differentiate between different fashions in the arabic world or know what christian arabs are wearing this season. He's just looking for anyone different to hate on.

So what, even if racism doesn't translate 1:1 from the US to Europe, it's most likely on a pretty similar level.
But why do you think our police don't really shoot many people, and why is there less violence overall?
That is why I presume Phmcw is arguing this is more of a social problem than a racism problem.
I myself would start with disarming the country, but I know that's off the table.