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[Leafsnail]

Are you trying to sarcastically imply that it would be OK for them to get away with this stuff as long as all races were brutalized equally?

He is actually implying that racism is a huge factor in these cases and that you can't ignore it.

[Zangi]

Are you trying to sarcastically imply that it would be OK for them to get away with this stuff as long as all races were brutalized equally?

He is actually implying that racism is a huge factor in these cases and that you can't ignore it.

Might also be the implication that if this was equal opportunity for all races, shit would get done.

[Phmcw]

Right, and the fact that it's 21 times more likely to happen to you if you're black is just a minor side issue.

Actually it's not really relevant. Given the gap between the two culture and the fact that the US don't have social escalator mechanism in place it can be due to a variety of reasons not related to racism.

Black officers account for a little more than 10 percent of all fatal police shootings. Of those they kill, though, 78 percent were black.

This, for instance, seems to imply that if something is disturbingly wrong in America, racism of the white supremacism kind doesn't seems to be the driving factor in those troubles.


If you all could admit that peoples are shaped by their surrounding and social environement and agree that you should fund policies aimed at improving it, especially for the worst areas of America, things would get better. You need less racial quota and conference on whiteness, and more free education, networking opportunities, healthcare and psychological care.


I talked to American reactionaries and the objection they raise are valid : if peoples are strong and independant, and able to suceed against all odds, how come the black community didn't get on its feets more after 50 years of equality in law?
The answer I see given to them is either "racism is holding them down" or "being white is associated with privilege you enjoy without noticing". Both are mostly bullshit.
The main answer to that question is : peoples aren't strong and independant and don't succeed in a vacuum. Sometime they can, but very rarely and if you count on that a societal class will never improve.
Networking, work ethics, study "trick" and philosophy, fund to get through hard time, famillial wisdom related to the work environement.... all that count and is more likely to create favorable conditions for middle class famillies than for descedant of slaves or physical laborers.
My last argument, that usually strike home, is that if they believe it's race related, they should look at the number of great artistic and scientific talent by race, compared to their % of the total world population, and bow to the Jewish master race, because they definitely win.

Also recruitement video for the police: Belgium, Colombus ,City of Denison texas, Florida. Seriously can't believe the American ones, that's how I'd recruit an occupation force in order to destroy the social tissue of occupied territory, not the police that'll watch over my kids.

[smjjames]

@phmcw: Yeah, the american ones have an emphasis on militarism, guns, and violence, while the belgian one, well, doesn't.

I guess if you actively seek the violent types, you'll get the violent types.

[Leafsnail]

@Phmcw: black people can also act as part of a racist institution. The rest of your post is a racist screed and I'm not sure how to respond

[Helgoland]

@Phmcw: black people can also act as part of a racist institution. The rest of your post is a racist screed and I'm not sure how to respond

It isn't, but keep in mind that hbe's European: He's trying to debunk the myth of the strong individual that is the basis of much of American politics.

As far as I can tell, his reasoning goes like this: Blacks* live in shitty conditions --> They don''t get the proper education, can't get into the right networks, etc etc --> Blacks stay in shitty conditions --> Blacks get shot a lot. He is, in fact, complaining about the racism in America's welfare state, and claims that the racism (or apparent racism) in the executive and judicial organs of the state is merely a consequence of that fundamental racism: Blacks live in shitty conditions --> Blacks can't get a good education and suchlike --> There's fewer black cops, judges, politicians etc.


Read his post more closely: He does not argue that the police is not racist. He argues that the police's racism is not the core issue here.


*Is that word PC? I used it because typing out black people would've felt very clumsy.

[smjjames]

@helgoland: It's okay I guess. Saying African-Americans would have been better.

[DJ]

IMO the biggest problem is that social mobility is hampered by unaffordable higher education. Universities just keep jacking up prices in response to increase in student loans, so if you're born in poverty you still can't afford it even if you can get a loan. There's exceptions, but only for the extraordinarily talented, not for those with "merely" above average talent. What's really needed is publicly funded Universities that are free (so you'd only need a loan for rent and food, which don't rise crazy fast like tuition fees), and new freshmen are chosen solely by their aptitude. Of course, for this system to work for reducing disparity between the races you'd also need good public schools in poor areas. I think that giving poor kids a way to make it in life would go a long way towards reducing crime in poor areas, which would change the general public's attitudes towards certain races.

[smeeprocket]

None of this had anything to do with the victims being criminal or poor. This can happen to well-to-do black people as well, and does. The victims either weren't committing a crime or their crime was minor.

Recently, a black man was racing home because his daughter was having an asthma attack, he got home with a police car chasing him. As he got out of the car, the officer fired at him, assuming he was armed and attacking. This man was middle class and was just trying to get his daughter's inhaler. Thankfully the cop was a shitty shot, but it could have ended badly.

Another black man was shot at after he was asked for his license and reached to get it. He was hit, but it was not fatal. This one was video taped on a police camera.

The class of the victim is almost irrelevant, cops will harass black people in poorer neighborhoods more regularly, as the wealthier ones are further removed from where the cops look for trouble (often of their own making.) But to most police officers, the color of your skin marks you in and of itself.

I have been told by police that my piercings and tattoos mark me as a criminal. Police do not bother trying to figure out whether "marked" individuals are actually a problem, they will make your life hell and can and will kill you without question. I still run significantly less risk than someone with dark skin.

[DJ]

Because large percentage of blacks are poor, people associate the race with poverty and crime.

[Rolan7]

@Phmcw: black people can also act as part of a racist institution. The rest of your post is a racist screed and I'm not sure how to respond

Is it?  I don't see anything blaming black people for being poor, rather explaining the economic and social factors.  Of course upward mobility is going to be hard in a high-crime area with gangs recruiting the youth, for example.  The sick parts of the community encourage youth to do crimes, get institutionalized, and value their group above their future.  There's an incredible amount of effort made to solve these problems by community centers and... churches, because it's a real vicious cycle which keeps people stuck for generations.

Racism would be saying that they're still poor because they're somehow inferior.  Which people say because it's as simple as it is wrong, and it plays into us-vs-them mentality.  Kinda like blaming every problem on vague oppression.  Though there *is* oppression, subtle things like hiring choices and social exclusion which are hard to prove but very real.  It's not the current reason these communities are in trouble, though.

Police being extra-vigilant in a high crime area isn't racism.  It's trying to restore stability to sick communities, because they can't heal unless people feel secure.  But cops-vs-blacks is a simple, resonant narrative.

The idea that police are systematically killing anyone unnecessarily hasn't been substantiated, here.  The most high-profile case turned out to be grey at best.  The shooting statistics seem to be the result of uncooperative criminal behavior, and nobody's showing otherwise... yet.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

The idea that police are systematically killing anyone unnecessarily hasn't been substantiated, here.  The most high-profile case turned out to be grey at best.  The shooting statistics seem to be the result of uncooperative criminal behavior, and nobody's showing otherwise... yet.

You not looking it up makes it not true, I get it

[Bohandas]

Right, and the fact that it's 21 times more likely to happen to you if you're black is just a minor side issue.

It is a minor side issue. The problem is that police are shooting people without proper cause, not who they're shooting without proper cause. Who they're shooting unnecessarily is just a detail.

[Rolan7]

The idea that police are systematically killing anyone unnecessarily hasn't been substantiated, here.  The most high-profile case turned out to be grey at best.  The shooting statistics seem to be the result of uncooperative criminal behavior, and nobody's showing otherwise... yet.

You not looking it up makes it not true, I get it

I said it hasn't been demonstrated here.  I'm inviting people to do so.

I've read the thread, and seen statistics like this: http://www.propublica.org/article/deadly-force-in-black-and-white
It doesn't demonstrate that cops are treating black people differently based on their race.  The main stats are number of teenage male suspects killed, by race, per capita.  1.5/1 million white male teenagers vs 31/1 million black male teenagers.

They focus on male teenagers, the demographic most likely to be recruited into gangs (if their community has such problems).
Then, just look at this misleading section.  (For one thing, the comparison in the sentence oddly conflates "fleeing arrest" with "fleeing or resisting".  Resisting arrest can include assaulting the officer.):

There were 151 instances in which police noted that teens they had shot dead had been fleeing or resisting arrest at the time of the encounter. 67 percent of those killed in such circumstances were black. That disparity was even starker in the last couple of years: of the 15 teens shot fleeing arrest from 2010 to 2012, 14 were black.

Which is outright misleading.  It ignores the racial demographics of the fleeing or resisting suspects who weren't shot.  Thought experiment:  About 101 of the dead teenagers who were resisting were black (fleeing is a type of resisting, technically).  What if black people only resisted in 202 cases, getting shot half the time... while white people resisted in thousands of cases, getting shot 1% of the time.  Saying that only 67% of the victims were black would be grossly misleading.

I suspect that the opposite is the case, and that more black male teenagers were involved in altercations.  That site doesn't have to suspect, they had the numbers, and could have easily said: "When resisting, a black teenager will be shot 10% of the time vs 1% for whites".  Or whatever the actual numbers are.  Instead they gave us numbers which look meaningful and lead us to draw unsupported conclusions.

So, maybe someone has better data?  The burden of proof is on the people making the allegations.

[misko27]

I'm going to stop by and say that while I support the New York protests, I do not condone protesters attempting to slow traffic or blocking trains and buses. Stop Christmas if you want/can, but I need to get somewhere in the morning.


Also I would like to point out that the Eric Garner Grand Jury is from Staten Island, the most white, conservative, and suburban borough of them all. Manhattan, for example, wouldn't ever have done that, nor would the Bronx, and Brooklyn is unlikely (Queens maybe). Furthermore, the NYPD is very well racially integrated as a whole, it's just very fond of the use of force (they learned their lesson about protests from OWS though; they've been peaceful).

Right, and the fact that it's 21 times more likely to happen to you if you're black is just a minor side issue.

It is a minor side issue. The problem is that police are shooting people without proper cause, not who they're shooting without proper cause. Who they're shooting unnecessarily is just a detail.

I gotta disagree. If Michael Brown had been white he'd be likely to be alive today. If the majority of police brutality is aimed at a specific group, it is worthwhile to examine that for itself, since you can reduce a large part of the problem.

As for perception of minorities, there's no doubt that they are, as a whole, more likely to be judged as poor, criminal, etc. then whites, ceteris paribus. Even though the NYPD is racially integrated, it still consistently stops blacks more then whites even outside of poor neighborhoods. There is both anecdotal evidence and hard statistics I can show if someone wants it.

However, I am alright with the argument that economic integration would decrease police brutality towards minorities. If the perception of a race as poor, prone to criminal behavior, etc. can be eliminated or even reduced (and yes I bear in mind this is no small task), then my thinking is police brutality will decrease significantly. Fixing the police reaction to minorities is solving a symptom and not the problem

I'm reminded of a theory I heard recently that European countries have much more well-developed welfare states because they are more racially homogeneous, and seeing a man sleeping on the sidewalk is more likely to provoke "There but for the grace of god go I" if that man is named Olaf then, let's say, Hassan. The United States has nearly always been racially diverse (although the definition of what that meant has changed), and newcomers and minorities are poor until they aren't, so seeing a man who doesn't look like you or isn't part of your culture needing help raises more objections (think about how much people whine about foreign aid). It seems that this can apply to arguments about police brutality as much as to welfare. I'm not sure about how much truth there is to this, but it's an interesting theory.