Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[ChairmanPoo]

.

[bloop_bleep]

I had interpreted something incorrectly.

[SalmonGod]

Maybe it's worth pointing out that the ideal resolution to the situation would have been the restaurant employees approaching him on their own and convincing/helping him to roll into a parking spot and leave it at that.  Don't call the police for stupid shit that can likely be resolved without them.  Especially where minorities are involved.  It's willfully endangering the lives of everyone involved.

[nenjin]

I feel like that's maybe an unreasonable ask. It's basically like "Don't be afraid of drunks/drug addicts on your property, just deal with them yourselves"....or alternatively "don't be afraid of black people."

I mean if he was willing to fight against the cops, what would he have been willing to do against Jeff the Wendy's Junior Assistant Manager? I don't know, I don't have the answers here.

[SalmonGod]

That's 100% fear culture talking.   How many people haven't had to handle asshole drunks at some point in their lives?  I've had dozens of them in my car for extended periods of time as an Uber driver - including shady drunk black people from run down parts of town.  It's not that hard.  And even bothering to mention blackness as a factor is just adding a racist element on top, which I'm sure I don't even need to point out.

That he got into a fight with cops doesn't mean much of anything.  Police have a reputation for being dangerous - especially to a black person.  When police begin acting physically aggressive, that will understandably trigger a fight or flight response in many people - especially black people - double especially drunk people with impaired judgment and inhibition.  This is zero indication that a fight or flight response would be triggered by Jeff the Assistant Manager shaking him and going "Hey man let me help you get into a parking spot where you can sleep safer."

That people are too afraid to even attempt to talk to each other before calling police is an immense cultural issue.  One our media deserves many solid kicks in the face for.

[nenjin]

How many people haven't had to handle asshole drunks at some point in their lives?

Plenty. And many of them called the cops rather than face off against a belligerent drunk. That's why we have cops in the first place, to take that risk for us. I'm not going to fault anyone for deciding to call the cops rather than deal with someone who _is_ intoxicated.

Regular black guy walking down the street? Messed up to call the cops, that's fear talking. Someone obviously under the influence of something, which you don't know what it is? That's an acceptable reason to call the cops, especially when it comes to ejecting them from your property.

Not everyone is a bouncer at a bar. And as an uber driver, if some intoxicated individual started shit with you and decided to get physical, what would your response be? Just "handle it"?

[scriver]

Gorilla warfare

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The fact is, he wasn't belligerent. He was literally asleep. They didn't even have a way to know he was intoxicated at all, much less belligerent. I can't say I'd be living in much fear of someone so drunk they couldn't stay conscious, either. Someone like that is most liable to knock themselves out if they try to act aggressively. It's no surprise he missed with the tazer, considering that.

[TD1]

Not everyone is a bouncer at a bar. And as an uber driver, if some intoxicated individual started shit with you and decided to get physical, what would your response be? Just "handle it"?

I agree.Dealing with drunks is easy so long as you go along with their drunken fancy. For instance, an uber driver comes, picks you up, and leaves you off somewhere. You lose money, but that's typically expected. You amble on your drunken way, probably having slurred some conversation at him.

But Jeff the Wendy's junior manager coming up to your car, which you presumably think is rightfully parked (else why do it?) and trying to get you to move? Jeff is standing in your way, aggravating you, and practically welcoming a drunken, unreasoned response.

It's the police's job to deal with dangerous members of society like that. Stop blaming someone for not wanting to incite a drunkard.

The fact is, he wasn't belligerent.

Until, you know, the sudden and belligerent assault. Come on, mate. You must know that one of the main issues with drunk people is their unpredictability. They can go from Bruce Banner to Hulk in 0.000000001 seconds.

[nenjin]

The fact is, he wasn't belligerent. He was literally asleep. They didn't even have a way to know he was intoxicated at all, much less belligerent. I can't say I'd be living in much fear of someone so drunk they couldn't stay conscious, either. Someone like that is most liable to knock themselves out if they try to act aggressively. It's no surprise he missed with the tazer, considering that.

Being passed out in the drive through lane of a fast food restaurant is a pretty dead giveaway you're on something. Or a small % chance you're so tired you literally fell a sleep in your car. I know which I'd think to be more likely.

And having had to wake up intoxicated people before (of various kinds) you honestly cannot predict how they're going to react.

Just so I can be clear: I don't condone shooting the guy, as I've said above. But I find the idea that people should not call the cops and choose to deal with potentially dangerous people themselves because they don't want to get the cops involved to be well-meaning but bad advice.

[Rolan7]

I don't agree with expecting customer service workers to handle drunks any more than they already have to.  Though involving the cops to handle a black man invites exactly the tragedy that occurred here.  Statistically.  So if it were me, I'd have to balance a lot of awkwardness, not-my-job, and some amount of personal risk against the act of calling the cops on a black man.  One who probably isn't in the best state to navigate the hairtrigger-dance of convincing the cops he's one of the good ones.

I wouldn't hesitate at all if it were a white person.  They're just going to get talked down and escorted to the drunk tank, happens all the time in cities everywhere.  Happens a lot for black people too, but it's - in aggregate - far more confrontational and dangerous, as we saw here.

Also they shot him in the back as he fled, unarmed, I can't believe people are defending that.  I think it's obvious that he wasn't a threat, the only argument is that he deserved to be shot dead because he assaulted the police.  Which is awful both morally and legally.

Edit: Oh crap I forgot my point:  This is exactly why cops should be defunded (partially, the phrase means partially) in order to fund specialists who can resolve this sort of situation without guns.  I'm personally okay with the government having armed enforcers (though we shouldn't kid ourselves about what they are doing) but a lot of situations like this can be better handled by mediators.

[TamerVirus]

I'd like my cops to shoot everybody in the face equally

[SalmonGod]

How many people haven't had to handle asshole drunks at some point in their lives?

Plenty. And many of them called the cops rather than face off against a belligerent drunk.

I should specify that I don't mean "handle" as in physically.  I mean as in tolerate their presence and/or prevent anything bad from coming of it by social means - negotiation, clever suggestion, etc.  I don't drink, have never been drunk, never been involved in any sort of party culture, never had much of a social life, and don't have the type of friends who are prone to getting drunk and stupid.  And even I have had to manage drunk friends/family getting troublesome on occasion.  It seems really far fetched to me that this isn't something most people have successfully coped with without involving police.  And I don't like how we're culturally trained to believe that it's somehow different and much more dangerous as soon as it's a stranger.

And as an uber driver, if some intoxicated individual started shit with you and decided to get physical, what would your response be? Just "handle it"?

Getting physical can mean a lot of things.  Most likely not seriously dangerous things.  If I'm being assaulted with blows or weapons, I'm not calling the police at that point.  That will be after the fact.  If I'm not being assaulted as such, like they're forcefully trying to take something from me or whatever, there's little reason to call the police, unless whatever the disagreement is or protecting my wallet or whatever is worth the other's life to me, and still likely not possible anyway as the incident is occurring.  If it's about verbal threats, fine, but you still have to weigh the possibility that police will show up and simply shoot the first person they see, and I'm not being hyperbolic there.  You are rolling a life or death die at that point based on a threat, for both yourself and the other.

And in any other sense, the possibility of violence is so fucking small.  This idea that anyone who's "on something" or acting strange or looking a little disheveled or whatever is likely to respond violently to any reasonable attempt at interaction is 100% fear culture imparted on us by sensationalist media.

[nenjin]

I should specify that I don't mean "handle" as in physically.  I mean as in tolerate their presence and/or prevent anything bad from coming of it by social means - negotiation, clever suggestion, etc.  I don't drink, have never been drunk, never been involved in any sort of party culture, never had much of a social life, and don't have the type of friends who are prone to getting drunk and stupid.  And even I have had to manage drunk friends/family getting troublesome on occasion.  It seems really far fetched to me that this isn't something most people have successfully coped with without involving police.  And I don't like how we're culturally trained to believe that it's somehow different and much more dangerous as soon as it's a stranger.

Well, I *have* been part of all those cultures. Including the drug culture. And let me be frank: you cannot predict how someone whacked out on hallucinogens or amphetamines is going to react. There is a good chance they are paranoid and/or delusional. And depending on the individual, drunks can be that way too. And because you _don't_ know what their deal is, telling someone to interact with them rather than calling the police does seem like bad advice to me.

If I'm not being assaulted as such, like they're forcefully trying to take something from me or whatever, there's little reason to call the police, unless whatever the disagreement is or protecting my wallet or whatever is worth the other's life to me, and still likely not possible anyway as the incident is occurring.

Ok, so if someone is robbing you, your respect for human life would rather be robbed and/or beat up than call the police. Cool. But irrelevant to the vast majority of everyone else out there.

And in any other sense, the possibility of violence is so fucking small.  This idea that anyone who's "on something" or acting strange or looking a little disheveled or whatever is likely to respond violently to any reasonable attempt at interaction is 100% fear culture imparted on us by sensationalist media.

I'd argue your clean-living lifestyle makes you under-qualified to make this assessment.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I could see having wariness of someone on a stimulant drug or in severe withdrawal. But nobody is afraid of a heroin addict when they've got the heroin. They wouldn't get out of bed if you pointed a gun in their face. Someone passing out in an inappropriate place is demonstrably either exhausted or or dosed up with a depressive drug, in this case alcohol. If you tap on their window and ask them to move they're not gonna leap through the glass and bite your throat out. Even if by some reason they did get aggressive, you are definitely not losing the chance to retreat as they try to open the door and not tip over.

Also, even extremely drunk people aren't deprived of free will. In my experience most people who are shitty drunks are shitty sober too.