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Author Topic: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice  (Read 431052 times)

Naturegirl1999

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2940 on: June 03, 2020, 05:10:58 pm »

Can you explain what this meme is/means? I’ve seen it a few times but am unsure of what it means here
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/blinking-white-guy
It expresses disbelief, or the person posting it is suggesting a double take on their part. In this circumstance, it refers to me pausing for a few seconds processing what had just been posted because despite my deeply ingrained cynicism whatever I had expected to be told about Epstien wasn’t that.
thanks

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/30/624918812/minneapolis-investigates-police-use-of-ketamine-on-suspects

Police and paramedics in Minneapolis forcing ketamine on people, sometimes for the purpose of enrolling them in a medical study without consent.  We're rolling back 60 years now to the era of unwilling human experimentation.

Edit:  Just noticed the story is 2 years old.

Here's a news article on the final draft of the report dated not long after the first link.
is this still happening with other drugs? Them being forced on people without consent?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 05:12:51 pm by Naturegirl1999 »
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Putnam

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2941 on: June 03, 2020, 06:22:09 pm »

Linked to here from this here thread cause that's what that thread's about. Promised I'd give my position to prove I'm not just a coward walking into a thread and saying "stop fighting" or whatever, and I'll probably fuck off after, and it's a really milquetoast position:

People are angry because cops are militarized and get away with murder. These are both problems that need fixing. Police need to be accountable for murder and the continuing culture of police being adversarial to the citizenry needs to be destroyed, not addressed. The primary reason people are resistant to keeping the systems that prevent cops from being held accountable for the murders they commit is because this makes the murder of black people legal. Maybe that last one's spicier, but it's not out of left field by any means, which should really be enough to horrify anyone.

Jimmy

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2942 on: June 03, 2020, 06:42:13 pm »

To play devil's advocate, I'd point out that police in the US face a rather unique situation, in that so much of the general population is armed with lethal weaponry. Over here in kangaroo land, nobody owns guns, barring those that use them for agricultural purposes or sport. We've got fairly strict gun control laws. Your average cop doesn't need to be worried about getting shot when they pull someone over.

In the US, they face the constant risk of gun violence. Thus, they're trained to deal with that, which is essentially military training. Little wonder they act like it.

Perhaps if people weren't allowed to own guns in the US, there'd be less violence? Training time spent on avoiding getting shot could be spent on deescalation techniques?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2943 on: June 03, 2020, 06:44:01 pm »

They're not, though. Cops face less gun violence than a whole host of professions, including some that aren't very dangerous at all. Cops aren't getting in gunfights with people and winning. They're just murdering people who mostly can't fight back.

That's why I support gun control, but only for cops. They're the ones who have proven they can't be trusted.
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Tilla

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2944 on: June 03, 2020, 06:45:06 pm »

I lack the American Political knowledge to know the identity and metaphorical application of Epstein beyond his name and that he is (was?) a he, may I ask who/what he was/is?
Numerous info you can find by just googling.
But, essentially a rich guy that hobnobbed with many celebrities and political figures in the western world.
He was charged with sexual abuse or some other involving underage girls over the years, bringing them to his home(s), private islands and whatnot.

He is dead now, 'suicide', while he was sitting in jail, before he could face the justice system and potentially reveal more of his doings, including info about his many 'friends' that could have taken part in the sexual abuse of minors.
Lets not forget that 1> the Camera in front of his cell was mysteriously turned off and 2> the list of his close friends included Bill Clinton and Donald Trump, Bill Gates, Michael Bloomberg. A whose who of  rich and powerful scumbags, all participating in child rape or at least aware of it and all with a deeply vested interest in seeing him silenced before he could testify.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 06:46:58 pm by Tilla »
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Evaris

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2945 on: June 03, 2020, 07:28:40 pm »

To play devil's advocate, I'd point out that police in the US face a rather unique situation, in that so much of the general population is armed with lethal weaponry. Over here in kangaroo land, nobody owns guns, barring those that use them for agricultural purposes or sport. We've got fairly strict gun control laws. Your average cop doesn't need to be worried about getting shot when they pull someone over.

In the US, they face the constant risk of gun violence. Thus, they're trained to deal with that, which is essentially military training. Little wonder they act like it.

Perhaps if people weren't allowed to own guns in the US, there'd be less violence? Training time spent on avoiding getting shot could be spent on deescalation techniques?

As I posted in this thread; http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=176557.msg8148974#msg8148974  Violence caused by police are a multifacted problem.  There was not a high rate of police shootings of civilians until after the militarization of the police in the US.  This has been a gradual trend over the last half-century or so - both of lowering of standards for police training, a move away from de-escalation training, and an overall increase of "us-vs-them" mentality amongst the police.  Furthermore, the justice system has been corrupted by prosecutors backed by for-profit prisons, and a distinct lack of accountability among the police - given the same department they work at would be the ones investigating any crimes an individual officer commits, as well as often the same judges some of these officers will have worked with for years or even decades, leads to a great deal of nepotism. 

The only realistic means to change that is to
1.  Enforce federal standards for police training and psychological screening,
2.  Eliminate for-profit prisons and the drug war,
3.  Elevate any crimes committed by police officers to that of federal statute, and thus being directly overseen by federal courts,
4.  Ensure any crimes to which a police officer is suspected of is investigated by a federal body like the FBI. 

Quite honestly, citizens owning guns is not as much an issue in the US, at least as far as people legally permitted to own firearms are concerned.  In fact, people who go through the measure to get a concealed carry licence in the USA are less likely to commit a crime than a police officer, which should say something to the measure in which there is actual accountability.  Even beyond concealed carry, more than 2/3rds of gun violence are carried out by people who are not legally able to have a gun.  Part of the problem in the USA, where that's concerned, is "felon with a firearm", itself a felony that can carry a multiple year sentence, is very rarely prosecuted.  Less than 1% of failed background checks are actually investigated by the police, and if I remember the figure correctly, around 20% of said rejections are from prohibited persons who are themselves breaking the law even attempting to get a firearm even as they are denied, meaning we have millions of people each year trying to get firearms illegally who the police just... ignore. 

Of course, if you were caught using cannabis before you were an adult and later the police learn you own firearms, the police might decide you're such a threat to society and they will skip even no-knock raids and fire into your bedroom from the curbside to kill you because you stood up and started walking towards the door, then proceed to refuse to even show a warrant after the fact to your family for the next 3 months+.  But this falls back into where police officer's priorities stand - they gain more for getting people for a 2-8 year sentence of drug possession than going after a 1-2 year sentence for felons having firearms, and prosecutors are more likely to win a plea bargain for such than say, armed robbery or assault, so police in the USA far more aggressively go after any sort of drug offences than other crimes, as that's where they get the most bonuses from.  Sadly, so many officers just see what they're doing as nothing more than a job, take as few risks to themselves as they can, and just try to maximize the money they can make, which leads to others suffering for it. 
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FantasticDorf

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2946 on: June 04, 2020, 03:56:58 am »

@Putnam, please don't misconstrew the meaning of my DF general discussion thread, its not about this topic, but by all means there's no reason why the replies can't not be addressed here, rather than mis-label the content.

Perhaps if people weren't allowed to own guns in the US, there'd be less violence? Training time spent on avoiding getting shot could be spent on deescalation techniques?

Would that also say that a mass of rioters from all walk of life, (but you might say mostly from ethnically black and impoverished communities) carry the destructive power of Hurricane Katrina at their fingertips far outscaling any weapon Americans have to go through a extensive process to obtain. In what some people consider a 'significant step' already for gun control.

A isolated example of Hurricane Katrina:


A isolated example of one night of rioting in Minneapolis, which has been replicated country wide since may 26th.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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martinuzz

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2947 on: June 04, 2020, 04:09:21 am »

To play devil's advocate, I'd point out that police in the US face a rather unique situation, in that so much of the general population is armed with lethal weaponry. Over here in kangaroo land, nobody owns guns, barring those that use them for agricultural purposes or sport. We've got fairly strict gun control laws. Your average cop doesn't need to be worried about getting shot when they pull someone over.

In the US, they face the constant risk of gun violence. Thus, they're trained to deal with that, which is essentially military training. Little wonder they act like it.

Perhaps if people weren't allowed to own guns in the US, there'd be less violence? Training time spent on avoiding getting shot could be spent on deescalation techniques?
This. It is sadly impossible to make even the most progressive and thoughtful American see this though.
Your average American would sooner let you sell their children to Epstein than be convinced that civilians with guns are a bad idea.
Doesn't mean we should stop trying.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2948 on: June 04, 2020, 04:13:49 am »

Lets not forget that 1> the Camera in front of his cell was mysteriously turned off and 2> the list of his close friends included Bill Clinton and Donald Trump, Bill Gates, Michael Bloomberg. A whose who of  rich and powerful scumbags, all participating in child rape or at least aware of it and all with a deeply vested interest in seeing him silenced before he could testify.
Also not just friends with American notables, friends too with lots of international notables, like Prince Andrew from the UK Royal Family, the filmmaker Woody Allen who was accused of pedophilia and just happened to attend Epstein's parties after Epstein was first prosecuted for child sex slave trafficking, as well as a crap ton of business people like Les Wexner (owner of Victoria's Secret, Abercrombie, Bath and Body Works), Glenn Dubin (financier, worth 2 billion dollars) and so on. Lots of billionaires and politically influential people who have the capacity to suicide people. The two officers in charge of checking up on him are now on trial for lying about checking on Epstein, whilst the Warden in charge of Epstein got promoted to a low-sec prison

Kagus

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2949 on: June 04, 2020, 04:17:50 am »

Honestly, part of the weirdness of it all is how so many connections with so much money and power... Couldn't put together a more believable scheme.

Reelya

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2950 on: June 04, 2020, 04:21:18 am »

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/02/police-marching-with-protesters-george-floyd-reform

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When he became mayor in 2014, Baraka made police reform a priority. He worked with activists lawmakers to form an independent citizen review board of police activities. Newark hired more local and minority police, and trained them to American Civil Liberties Union standards, which limit use of force. Baraka pushed back against the city’s powerful police union.

Last year, Newark’s crime rates dropped to an unprecedented low.

“This relationship has been a nurtured one,” Baraka said of bridging the communication gap between police and the Newark community, and that paid off last weekend when the tense protest ended without any arrests. “The police showed an uncanny level of restraint. They did not come downtown with tanks and body armor.”

So there are places that rammed through police reforms in the USA going up against the powerful police unions and now those places have the cops shaking hands and hugging the protestors, doing the kneeling thing alongside protestors, along with generally low crime rates compared to other places in the USA. The corrupt entrencted police forces have a motivated interested in keeping the shit hitting the fans - as long as that's the case, the police basically get more power. Power from chaos basically, and they know their actions, like assaulting peaceful protestors and planting agitators cause chaos. That chaos is then used to arm-bend the civilian authorities to give yet more authority to the police. That's the current system and the big issue here.

Loud Whispers

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2951 on: June 04, 2020, 04:45:05 am »

Honestly, part of the weirdness of it all is how so many connections with so much money and power... Couldn't put together a more believable scheme.
Putin uses radiation poisoning, ricin capsules and nerve agents for assassination despite having access to more discreet methods, I don't think any of these political or money people would need anything more discreet than a suicide of a high profile prisoner. Even if a forensic pathologist says the evidence points to homicide, not suicide, without a suspect there's no chance of even getting close to proving who linked to Epstein was responsible, because Epstein died before he could testify against his buddies

Jimmy

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2952 on: June 04, 2020, 04:46:05 am »

I dare say there's a point to be made somewhere in all this about companies who manufacture military equipment seeking to expand their market into the civilian police sector.

They're not, though. Cops face less gun violence than a whole host of professions, including some that aren't very dangerous at all. Cops aren't getting in gunfights with people and winning. They're just murdering people who mostly can't fight back.

That's why I support gun control, but only for cops. They're the ones who have proven they can't be trusted.
Interesting statistics regarding police!

This site lists 1,070 police killed by gunfire between 2000 and 2020.

This wikipedia article estimates the frequency of justifiable homicide by police in the line of duty (a.k.a. shooting people dead) as roughly 1,000 per year.

According to this article, there's a little less than 18,000 police in the USA. So if we compare the statistics...

If you live in the USA, your odds of being shot by police are about 1/328,000 per year.

If you're a cop in the USA, your odds of being shot in the line of duty are about 1/360 per year.

Did I do the math right here? Seems pretty skewed towards cops getting gunned down.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2953 on: June 04, 2020, 04:50:40 am »

Those are stats for police agencies, departments and so on, not total police numbers
This thing says the USA has under a million police officers

Jimmy

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #2954 on: June 04, 2020, 04:55:29 am »

Cool, thanks for fixing my mistake!

So that would make the odds of a cop being killed by gunshot about 1/20,000 per year.

I mean, I kinda wonder how much that would change if gun control were tighter in the USA. It's kind of hard to shoot someone if you can't get a gun.

Then the war on drugs could become the war on guns! Everyone wins!
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