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Author Topic: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice  (Read 428509 times)

smirk

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #285 on: November 26, 2014, 09:31:44 pm »

First three results on Google. Glad to save you that precious half-calorie of energy.

Not drunk enough for this; not tonight. Back when blotto.
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SalmonGod

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #286 on: November 26, 2014, 09:35:17 pm »

I really wish I had time to weigh in on all the misinformation that's been thrown around over the last couple pages and not properly dismantled on the Ferguson case, but it's 9:30 pm and I'm finally getting to sit down and relax a little at home for the first time today.
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TamerVirus

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #287 on: November 26, 2014, 09:46:58 pm »

Whatever, no skin off my bones ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I just like to drum up discussion. I don't really care about your biases for or against certain news sources
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4maskwolf

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #288 on: November 27, 2014, 12:17:21 am »

Part of me wants to weigh in on this issue, but another part of me wants to stay clear of it until I'm actually accepted to colleges...

Hmm...

Phmcw

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #289 on: November 27, 2014, 07:19:13 am »

I still think that both sides are arguing in bad faith. Very obvious cases are punished, but much too lightly, and therefore peoples argue ambiguious cases.


But the one thing that is obvious is that the police cannot do its job and that it need both more money and to be held more accountable. But that mean more taxes and may give other workers dangerous ideas of decent work conditions.
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Reelya

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #290 on: November 27, 2014, 07:32:10 am »

Fixing up the drug laws would go a long way to easing policing issues: less drug war and less stupid laws = less intrusive policing, less excuses for police misbehavior, more focused resources, less police needed, so a reduced number of officers whilst also raising wages, all of which will bring standards up.

Reducing avenues for corruption goes hand in hand with removing contraband and black markets. While things like drugs, gambling and prostitution are illegal that just breeds crime networks and attracts corrupt people to the police force (those guys who are in it for the kickbacks aren't working on the missing persons unit though, they're working vice, where you can get a cut of dirty money).

SalmonGod

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #291 on: November 27, 2014, 12:47:17 pm »

I still think that both sides are arguing in bad faith. Very obvious cases are punished, but much too lightly, and therefore peoples argue ambiguious cases.

People argue ambiguous cases partly because they're angry, but mostly because the police have a deep history of covering up for their wrongdoings and always throw a bunch of obfuscation up in the media, even when the straight facts would be on their side.  As in this case where those who have been following it from the beginning know that the Missouri police have engaged in some pretty serious media manipulation, including pushing some flat out lies.  It severely undermines my ability to believe the police could be acting in good faith.

And it doesn't help that the false arguments they construct also tend to be very demeaning, especially when race is involved.  Such as focusing on details of the victim's behavior or appearance, when you can then point to many other cases where white people easily got away with those same things.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 12:50:05 pm by SalmonGod »
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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smjjames

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #292 on: November 27, 2014, 12:55:07 pm »

Even the CNN guys are expressing disgust at the Rice case, so many things gone wrong there. Of course though, theres a whole bunch of things that went wrong like the dispatcher not giving the full information, or perhaps even false information.

Also, for the Brown case, turns out that the 'expert' might not actually be an expert. Seems like the whole thing is screwed up from the start.

Oh yeah, the comment about people resorting to terrorism some pages earlier, sounds like that almost came true because there actually was a plot related to the whole issue: http://www.kvue.com/story/news/2014/11/26/sources-plot-to-bomb-gateway-arch-kill-mcculloch-foiled/19568079/

Of course though, terrorism would just make the government clamp down even harder and not make things better. It seems to be an isolated case though and not anything widespread.

I know it's from a random local source, but theres iterations of this all over, no idea where the origional source is.
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palsch

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #293 on: November 27, 2014, 03:18:08 pm »

Been away a while and probably not the best first post on return, but...

The whole grand jury affair does not sit well with me in the first place.

Historically speaking, grand juries were there to judge the ability of a prosecutor to build a case. Before there were professional, appointed public prosecutors many cases were brought by amateurs (often police officers or the victims/interested parties themselves) or hired lawyers whose abilities may not be tested in that area. Any such party could bring a bill of indictment before the grand jury, who then decided if there was a case to be answered. That is, the prosecuting party had to prove that what they claimed to have happened was a crime, and that they had some evidence that it happened. There was no defence offered. The jury had the power to investigate, but generally the test was that the evidence didn't immediately collapse as absolute fiction and that the act being described was actually a crime. At that point the prosecuting party was granted the power to represent the state in prosecuting the accused in court.

Which is to say they were basically a gateway to filter out incompetents from bringing nonsense cases.

The requirement for a grand jury to clear a case before prosecution is written into the Fifth Amendment and several states have legislation requiring them in some cases, but outside that they are largely redundant given professional prosecutors and preliminary hearings in front of judges. It's rare you have to test a state prosecutor's competence to prosecute a case, and so a brief hearing of the charges and evidence to make sure they aren't a complete farce is all that is generally needed.

Modern grand juries (outside federal cases) tend to be rubber stamps or political tools for prosecutors. The indictment rate is near perfect; usually around 98-99% for the state statistics I've seen, with a federal rate of only 11 cases turned down out of 162,000 in 2010.

It's not hard to see why when you consider that such hearings are basically a trial without any defence, and without even requiring a guilty verdict; simply a majority who believe there is a case that needs answering. A prosecutor who wants to bring charges and can't put such a case together would simply never get into that position these days. At least some minimal legal competence is required to rise to that level, and that's all that such a task asks. If that, given it's the prosecutor who advises the jury as to the legal requirements and standards of indicting the accused.

But then the grand jury can also be used as a political shield. This makes sense when there is a person with considerable influence being investigated. Running the investigation and prosecution in the name of an anonymous and protected jury rather than a politically appointed prosecutor or state employed police department makes sense in such cases, and offers the prosecutor a degree of independence they may not otherwise feel.

It can also offer distance from lose-lose cases. A case where the prosecutor would be lambasted for either action or inaction can be dodged by passing it off to a grand jury, while the prosecutor still retains the ability to get the outcome they desire from the jury by exercising the same near certainty of indictment if they want it.

Quite frankly, that's what I consider to have happened here. The case presented was not the sort of case you expect a prosecutor to bring in front a grand jury, and almost seems designed to have failed.

One strong indicator (IMO) was Willson's testifying. Not the content of his testimony, but the fact of it. While a Grand Jury can compel witnesses to testify it does not overrule the Fifth Amendment; you can never force them to testify if they may incriminate themselves. Because of this you hardly ever see defendants brought in front of a grand jury. The fact that he would be called at all is weird, that he offered testimony that sounded like defence testimony begging to be cross-examined by a prosecutor - despite being presented to the jury by a prosecutor - is just absurd.

There is also the simple fact that there were never specific charges presented for the jury to indict on. Usually a prosecution case is by the numbers; here are the points that must be supported by evidence for there to be a crime. To not have that template and the evidence laid out in such a way it would be considerably harder for a jury to find a count that matches the evidence.

This isn't exactly uncommon though. That 538 link above pointed out that despite rarely failing to indict, the majority of grand juries brought to hear charges against police officers return no-bill. Given that cases involving officers are the perfect example of lose-lose cases for the prosecutors (who have extreme pressure not to convict the officers they work with) these are the exact cases I'd expect to see thrown away in farces such as this one.
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Zangi

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #294 on: November 28, 2014, 09:22:05 pm »

^ From the things I hear about this specific grand jury thing... well it just sounds like it was all set up to 'fail'... but still have the bare trappings of legitimacy. 
It is a miscarriage of justice to let it close like this, in my opinion.  If nothing else comes of the rioting and everything else, I rather hope at least there is someone to legally/judicially right this wrong
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Cheeetar

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #295 on: December 01, 2014, 04:30:17 am »

Darren Wilson (police officer who shot Michael Brown) has resigned.

A particularly select quote:
Quote from: Darren Wilson's resignation letter
I have been told that my continued employment may put the residents and police officers of the City of Ferguson at risk

I'm delighted by the entirely legitimate misinterpretation of that as worry that he might gun down more people.
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Drakale

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #296 on: December 01, 2014, 10:18:26 am »

Am I the only one thinking that the fact that he might be truly innocent and yet is forced to resign is not a very good outcome? We will never know the truth, but why are most people satisfied with burning Wilson at the stake when there is nothing clearly contradicting his version of the events? There is clearly a problem between the law enforcement and racial discrimination, but the media circus and the trust that is put in mob justice in this case and other similar cases is scaring me. Cherry picking one nebulous case and blowing it out of proportion is not helping anyone here I feel.

I do agree that is should have went directly to trial, because now there won't be a clear guilty or innocent verdict, and yet his life is ruined anyway. I guess they wanted to avoid another Zimmerman style media fest, but this isn't any better.

Just my 2 cents, hard to judge this without living in St Louis I guess.
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Frumple

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #297 on: December 01, 2014, 10:44:29 am »

... yeah, a multi-hundred thousand dollar donation paycheck (was over 600k, last I heard) and getting away scot free from a potential murder charge is a ruined life. Because he's now going to be have to spend a few months or a year or so waiting for the media attention to blow over, and then live the rest of his life comfortably atop the half-million+ in cash people have given him for his actions. Ruined indeed. Unless the feds actually take him to trial instead of letting that farce of a grand jury assessment stand, I guess. Won't be holding my breath.

And yeah, the witness testimonies for the grand jury thing have been released to the public. There's somewhere around a half-dozen versions of the event that clearly contradict Wilson's to one degree or another.

As for people being satisfied with less official reaction, it's mostly because most people paying attention at this point think the chances of something official happening is exactly goddamn zero. Grand jury indictment effectively thrown by an either incredibly incompetent or actively malignant prosecution, constant attempts by the police to shit all over people and procedure during the whole thing, etc., etc., etc. Folks wanting some sort of censure don't really have anything left but the pitchfork and torches at this point.
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Drakale

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #298 on: December 01, 2014, 11:05:30 am »

Look, I read all the papers related to the jury, and frankly the contradicting statements come from witnesses that modified their version of event in subsequent testimonies. Please do point out if I am missing something here, I'll be happy to reread the corresponding papers. I am absolutely not convinced Wilson is innocent, only that I saw no clear contradiction of his version from the presented facts.

Like I said, I do not know what happened on that night, I just find the whole thing to be a complete circus that have little to do with justice and more of a witch hunt. I strongly disagree with the statement that pitchfork and torches are the only path left, only ruin and hostility lies that way. My personal opinion is that every police officer on duty should wear a camera, making them accountable for their actions. If I was a citizen of Ferguson, this is what I would be pushing for, not "pitchfork and torches".

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Sheb

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #299 on: December 01, 2014, 11:08:20 am »

They had camera, apparently they just forgot to wear them or something.

And I think every one here would have preffered a real trial. But with no trial, forced resignation is the best thing that could happen.
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