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Author Topic: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice  (Read 445333 times)

BurnedToast

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #165 on: November 25, 2014, 06:05:19 pm »

Wasn't that video from months before? And not even a theft?

The video was from about 10 minutes before he was shot.

The only site I've seen that suggested he actually payed also got another key fact wrong (they said he was shot in the back, which in fact he was not). Furthermore, if you believe he did pay it's incredibly difficult to explain his threatening behavior when the shopkeeper tried to stop him from leaving.

On top of that, his friend who was with him admitted that they stole them.
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freeformschooler

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #166 on: November 25, 2014, 06:44:18 pm »

The only problem is they tried that, and it got them tear gassed, beaten, media suppressed, and guns pointed at them. It may be pointless, but what the hell else do you do at that point? The powers that be are killing your people, violently suppressing dissent, and showing absolutely no interest in seeing anything positive done. Sure, it's pointless, but at that point so is everything. Setting something on fire is a pretty normal reaction in that kind of situation. Probably the wrong one, but at that point "fuck the world" is damned understandable.

MLK's disciples also suffered ridiculously out of proportion abuse, like having rabid police dogs sicced on them, but they did not explode into riots at the first sign of injustice. There's this idea common on the Internet that police abuse and brutality is a new, modern reaction to protest that makes modern protest futile, and somehow morally justifies the harm of unrelated innocents by protesters, but then you remember...

...and those protests somehow remained peaceful and loot-free, despite being composed of old folk and "stupid young people."

ಠ_ಠ

"I don't believe in any kind of nonviolence. I believe that it is right to be nonviolent with people who are nonviolent. But when you're dealing with an enemy that doesn't know what nonviolence is, as far as I'm concerned you're wasting your time." -Malcolm X, 1965

There is a huge difference between storming the Bastille and burning a harmless pizza place. I think even Malcolm X would understand that -- although, at the time, even ordinary commercial institutions were "in on" the game and acceptable targets.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 06:45:57 pm by freeformschooler »
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Jervill

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #167 on: November 25, 2014, 07:17:31 pm »

Wasn't that video from months before? And not even a theft?
Michael brown was a thief - that's not in dispute.


Well, you know, except the owner of the store the police say he robbed.
Quote
KANZLER: "Whatever the police are looking for on the surveillance tape, has nothing to do with what went on in the street."
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/18/1322560/-Ferguson-Store-Owner-Says-NO-ONE-From-His-Store-Called-Cops-To-Report-Cigar-Theft

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/15/lawyer-store-didnt-call-cops-on-ferguson-teen-michael-brown/14138121/

Mict stated a couple posts back, BurnedToast ignored it because it didn't fit his ideas.
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BurnedToast

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #168 on: November 25, 2014, 08:02:30 pm »

Wasn't that video from months before? And not even a theft?
Michael brown was a thief - that's not in dispute.


Well, you know, except the owner of the store the police say he robbed.
Quote
KANZLER: "Whatever the police are looking for on the surveillance tape, has nothing to do with what went on in the street."
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/18/1322560/-Ferguson-Store-Owner-Says-NO-ONE-From-His-Store-Called-Cops-To-Report-Cigar-Theft

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/15/lawyer-store-didnt-call-cops-on-ferguson-teen-michael-brown/14138121/

Mict stated a couple posts back, BurnedToast ignored it because it didn't fit his ideas.

Yes, I ignored the fact the shopkeeper is choosing not to report the theft and is attempting to distance himself from it as much as possible, likely because he does not want the rioters to burn his store down.

Regardless of if he reported it or not, it still occurred.
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SalmonGod

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #169 on: November 25, 2014, 08:12:50 pm »

I can't believe this robbery debate is still going on.

There was another link that I've posted on these boards before in regards to this, but that link is no longer functional.  IIRC, the full story from the store owner was that there was a short conflict between Michael Brown and the clerk (it isn't even the store owner that Brown is interacting with in the video) because of the clerk refusing him service, but it was nothing more than a heated moment that didn't amount to anything.  There was no robbery and no harm done.  But the internet and media ran so immediately and vigorously with the original, very selectively edited story, that it has continued to drown out the full story.


Quick question: why do people consider the US law enforcement to be so bad? Last time, they accidentally killed one guy. One guy. Not one hundred guys, not one thousand guys, one. Guy. And that's it, really. Cannot that be relegated to just an unfortatunate accident? You have individual corrupt and/or incompetent police officers, sure, but why rage against the system when it's working mostly fine, unlike in so many other countries?

I think this link from the very first post in the thread sums it up nicely.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #170 on: November 25, 2014, 08:15:55 pm »

.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 08:11:47 am by penguinofhonor »
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TamerVirus

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #171 on: November 25, 2014, 08:19:12 pm »

Scouted out the local protest:

So far it can be boiled down to 'A couple hundred people standing around with signs and yelling a lot.' They are all congregated in a barriers area and are surrounded by scores of policemen. Reports are saying a much larger group is marching around the city and causing traffic congestion but it all seems quite peaceful. Surprising, given the outrage of this case and the recent chokehold and rookie shooting case.

Lots of denouncing of white privledge....from a crowd of mostly white folk.

Hmmmm...
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SalmonGod

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #172 on: November 25, 2014, 08:43:28 pm »

As for the rioting, I think it is actually appropriate.

I see a riot as similar in nature to a strike.  In both cases, they are acts of defiance against an authority that is absolute in its ability to impose conditions and actively design the context of negotiation and peaceful recourse, but still depends on the cooperation of its subjects in order to remain an authority. 

A business can absolutely refuse to negotiate working conditions and there is nothing workers can do about that.  But workers can refuse to work, and there is aboslutely nothing a business can do about that.  If the business wants to exist, it can thereby be forced to negotiate with its workers.

Similarly, a legal establishment that wishes to impose order on a population can absolutely refuse to negotiate the conditions of that order, and even in a democracy can manipulate those conditions such that there is nothing that population can do about it (for example by disproportionately turning black people into felons with no right to vote).  But if that population refuses to behave orderly, then that order will not exist, and there is nothing the law can do about that.  It can thereby be forced to negotiate with its population.

Another effect of both strikes and riots is that it forces indifferent bystanders into the equation.  Random comfortably middle-class white guy may not care about how much a fast food worker gets paid, or about the grueling shifts of medical workers. But he does care if nobody is willing to serve him fast food or tend to his illness (a strike can harm innocent people too...). He is more likely then to put pressure on businesses to treat their workers fairly, so they'll go back to providing the services he wants.

Similarly, random comfortable middle-class white guy may not care that unarmed black teenagers are murdered in the street by police. But he is forced to care if every time it happens, his car gets set on fire. He's more likely then to put pressure on police to stop behaving in ways that result in his car getting set on fire.

This ruling yesterday sent a very clear message.  That if you fail to immediately and completely comply with any order by a police officer, even one as insignificant as "get on the sidewalk", that the officer can kill you for it and expect no repercussions.  And given the well-established racist nature of law enforcement around St Louis, and many other parts of the country, it is clear that the law has the intention and ability to operate as the enemy of a majority black population.

As far as I'm aware, all reasonable responses to this situation have been attempted and met with violent suppression or otherwise failed.  Given this, I don't feel that a riot is an inappropriate response.

And yeah... peaceful demonstration has never been the sole component of any successful movement against an oppressive entity.  There were a lot of riots during the civil rights movement era.  MLK's non-violent leadership was not solely responsible for its success, and the guy wasn't even non-violent through the entirety of his activist career.  The non-violent approach wasn't even his idea.  Another guy went to great lengths to convince him to put down his guns.

Quote
“What is going on here is real simple,” said DeAndre Rogers Austin, 18, who was with his two younger sisters. “We told them no justice, no peace. We didn’t get our justice, so they don’t get their peace. We’re fucking shit up over here. Plain and simple.”
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 08:48:31 pm by SalmonGod »
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Zangi

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #173 on: November 25, 2014, 09:12:55 pm »

They lack a real leader. There's no MLK or Ghandi to coordinate them with the sheer force of their personality. There probably won't be any great speeches or decisions, all that they have is anger and frustration, so that's all we see.

To me that's hard to believe... there are so many unhappy people in big cities like Ferguson. Not one has leaderly courage and and the desire to organize people against abuse?
That's not the problem, the problem is people that are unwilling to listen.
Hey, if all the traditional leader figures are telling people to remain calm and are just standing by... well noone is going to expect em to lead/take part in the rioting.  Sure, those telling people to calm down may be well-meaning people... but if they are not going to help, stay out of the way.  (At least, that would be the general thinking behind it.)

Its just that no leader has stood out among the rioters...  Or more cynically, the priority targets for arrest/suppression/hospitalization would be people/groups who demonstrates that they can do some leading...
(As the authority here, my priority would be dragging the rioters through the mud.  That means in part ensuring that they have no leader to rally behind, no 'meaningful' message to say, so that they may be demonized/criminalized and hammered with impunity, similar to the outcome of the London Riots...)
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SalmonGod

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #174 on: November 25, 2014, 09:24:13 pm »

I think the nature of media is a factor in the emergence of leaders, also.  Especially social media.  There are a lot more people in the world, a lot more ways for them to communicate, and everyone is much more jaded to and immersed in media in general.  This makes it difficult for one person to be both sensational enough to grab everyone's attention through all the noise, and still do so in a way that inspires anything sensible.
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smjjames

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #175 on: November 25, 2014, 09:29:14 pm »

And yeah... peaceful demonstration has never been the sole component of any successful movement against an oppressive entity.

Um, India? That was mostly peaceful.
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Levi

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #176 on: November 25, 2014, 09:34:58 pm »

As for the rioting, I think it is actually appropriate.

I kinda agree.  It isn't right, but its not like anything else seems to be working.  What should you do when protesting doesn't work?
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Bauglir

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #177 on: November 25, 2014, 09:42:04 pm »

To springboard off SG, whom I largely agree with, every looter and rioter is, obviously, responsible for their own actions. But responsibility for the general state of rioting lies with the government, which has accepted as its job the work of ensuring a fair and just society - and, as countless examples have shown, is utterly unwilling to do its job when it means inconveniencing itself or its agents. When you don't do your job, it's pretty natural to expect things that depend on it to break down. Moreover, attempting to use police action to shut down a riot that's been sparked by the abuse of police power is "doing their job" in the same way that watering crops with Gatorade is doing a farmer's.
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Fniff

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #178 on: November 25, 2014, 09:49:43 pm »

So the cops at Fergusson are dressed fancily in their Kevlar and assault rifles. In fact, you could say they're... Dressed to oppress.
... I just wanted to make that one pun.

Baffler

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #179 on: November 25, 2014, 10:42:46 pm »

So the cops at Fergusson are dressed fancily in their Kevlar and assault rifles. In fact, you could say they're... Dressed to oppress.
... I just wanted to make that one pun.

Why would they even carry those? If they actually use them it will be a massacre that only causes more anger, and not just in Ferguson. Even if they don't actually use them it makes everyone edgy and scared, the cops included. And that's not a good situation for anyone.
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