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[Rolan7]

If you prefer to dismiss all of law enforcement as "the problem" and suggest that they deserve "consequences"

This is the ultimate strawman.

What you said:

I don't think it will be long before police start facing some serious retribution across the country, if stuff like this keeps happening with such regularity.

Stating a prediction is not inciting.

Using the word "retribution" does suggest that they deserve it.  But, I won't hold you to something if you didn't mean it.  If you were just predicting that police will have more violence committed against them as a result of all this, we're in total agreement.  No need to argue.

Edit: In fact, my fault for not accepting your clarification there.  I should have taken it at face value instead of questioning it.

[SalmonGod]

Thank you.

Moving past that conflict, but tangenting comment on that thought.

I honestly don't think that violence ever equals justice, and I believe in due process.  This is one of the things that frustrates me most about police, and about the common debate surrounding it.  It shouldn't be so common for people to be egregiously harmed by the law outside of due process.  It gets officially excused on the basis of self-defense, but this leniency goes so incredibly far because the prevailing attitude among a very significant portion of the public still reasons that anyone harmed by police is automatically a criminal.  Otherwise they wouldn't have been in that situation in the first place.  Thus justice is corrupted, and people find themselves in situations where undue violence is put on them that they have no hope or license to defend against.

To be clear, I am not accusing you of having that attitude, though I'll admit that I did before and was reacting harshly.

[Rolan7]

Sure actually, I can agree that many people are too quick to assume that suspects are guilty.  Particularly, well, based on race or financial status.  It's really unfortunate and a serious problem, which results in injustice and probably contributes to cases of police brutality.

On the other hand, I feel like some people are too quick to assume the opposite, too.  Which is mostly fine in itself - people *should* be considered innocent until proven guilty!  What bothers me is when people go too far and assume individual cops are guilty, prematurely.  Cops should have the same consideration as anyone else, when it comes to leveling accusations.

Which is not to say they shouldn't be held to a very high standard.  Just that their guilt needs to be proven like any other suspect.

Also, there's definitely corruption in the law enforcement system.  And the culture of fraternity has resulted in coverups.  I pointed out an obvious example in one case of this thread, where the police statement must have been fabricated based on cell phone camera footage we saw.  They couldn't have just got it wrong, they were just lying.

Here's the crazy thing:  I doubt that Darren Wilson actually acted wrongly, but I'm quite sure the situation was mishandled in a reflexive attempt to cover up wrongdoing *which might not have existed*.  There definitely should have been a proper trial, and the community shouldn't have had to demonstrate for it.  The fact that they demonstrated and *didn't* get that trial is unjust and incredibly fishy.  (The fact that there were riots and looting doesn't support or weaken that at all).  I don't condemn Wilson, but I do condemn the people in charge in Ferguson.

[SalmonGod]

I don't disagree with much you've said there.  The main distinction worth making is this:

Cops should have the same consideration as anyone else, when it comes to leveling accusations.

Which is not to say they shouldn't be held to a very high standard.  Just that their guilt needs to be proven like any other suspect.

When police use force, there's almost never a dispute as to whether that use of force actually took place, and it's understood that legal application of force is a necessary part of police work.  The question is what applications of force are justified.  So proving "guilt" is a much fuzzier matter, open to lots of interpretation.

What we have right now is legal precedents have swung about as far as they possibly can to one side of this issue, short of granting police absolute impunity.  I think perhaps what you're often seeing as presumption of guilt is more disagreement with what constitutes justified use of force, and also disagreement with how police behaviors create situations where use of force can be justified.

[Loud Whispers]

I'll go ahead and say, of course police brutality occurs.  The most frustrating thing about this thread, when I still took it seriously, was that false or sketchy accusations were drawing attention from the actual problem.  Making false accusations doesn't raise awareness of a true problem, it helps people stop caring.  That makes sense, right?

I've been trying to say this from the start!

[SalmonGod]

Breaking up a teenager pool party = TIME TO SHOW OFF MY ACTION HERO SKILLZ

[RedKing]

As someone who used to work very closely with Federal law enforcement (as opposed to the city/county Barney Fifes that a lot of these incidents seem to come from), I can attest that there are good law enforcement professionals, and there are blatantly racist, aggressive ones who have no business wearing a badge and carrying a firearm.

I think one problem is compassion fatigue. You see it in a lot of professions that are public-facing, especially ones where you're dealing with unruly, ungrateful people on a daily basis. Teachers, ER doctors, defense lawyers, tech support, law enforcement...it's very easy in those professions to get so frustrated by the people that you're supposed to be helping that you start to see them as the enemy. I know a couple of agents that would watch stuff like YouTube clips of gang members getting shot and killed, and laugh about it. Not in a black humor kind of way, but a genuinely malicious, deriving pleasure from watching another human being die kind of way.

[Xantalos]

As someone who used to work very closely with Federal law enforcement (as opposed to the city/county Barney Fifes that a lot of these incidents seem to come from), I can attest that there are good law enforcement professionals, and there are blatantly racist, aggressive ones who have no business wearing a badge and carrying a firearm.

I think one problem is compassion fatigue. You see it in a lot of professions that are public-facing, especially ones where you're dealing with unruly, ungrateful people on a daily basis. Teachers, ER doctors, defense lawyers, tech support, law enforcement...it's very easy in those professions to get so frustrated by the people that you're supposed to be helping that you start to see them as the enemy. I know a couple of agents that would watch stuff like YouTube clips of gang members getting shot and killed, and laugh about it. Not in a black humor kind of way, but a genuinely malicious, deriving pleasure from watching another human being die kind of way.

As someone who works retail, I can wholly agree on that point.


Jokes aside, that is a big problem, but is there any way to really address it besides a room in the police station full of puppies/kittens and pictures of happy faces plastered on the walls?

[Flying Dice]

Breaking up a teenager pool party = TIME TO SHOW OFF MY ACTION HERO SKILLZ

I'm trying to recover my anger, but holy shit that cop fantasizing about his Duty being Called was fucking hilarious.

[Xantalos]

That fucking dodge roll at the beginning though.

[Sheb]

But seriously, pulling a gun on a 14 years old girl? In Belgium, that guy would have been fire already...

[Reelya]

The whole thing was crazy. If the kids don't have permission to be at the pool, why stop them leaving. Then turn around and tell the kids to disperse. Those sorts of contradictory actions/commands make it seem like the cops actually wanted trouble. If you want to leave, they order you to stay, and the kids who want to stay, get ordered to leave. Then, you start assaulting a little girl and when her friends try and protect her, you pull a loaded gun. Guy shouldn't be a cop.

[smjjames]

I should note that the girl is either African American or Hispanic, so um, should we play the racism card?

But yeah, he has no business acting like that.

[Sheb]

I wonder if Rolan7 will argue that the police's actions were entirely justified.:p

[Egan_BW]

At the very least they should send him back to firearms safety training.