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[lijacote]

To anyone who supports the Baltimore riots:
Do any of you actually live in Baltimore, or at least nearby?

"You wouldn't want black people who are fed up with getting murdered actually doing anything about it in your backyard, would you?"

[Redzephyr01]

You really have no idea how bad the rioting is here, do you? They set an old folks' home, and apartment building, and several stores that were completely unrelated to the incident on fire. There are people who actually live in those buildings, and setting the buildings on fire caused them to be homeless. This isn't going to stop police brutality, it's just going to ruin the lives of completely unrelated people.

[lijacote]

It must be a coincidence that the six officers are getting charged after a popular uprising takes hold of Baltimore. Surely nothing good has ever come about as a result of popular force being used.

Sure. It is unfortunate that homes are being burned, etc., people are not quite organized enough to put up a "pure" fight, or something closer to a "pure" fight. This is why you need organization. This is not why you should not riot.

[Redzephyr01]

I never said that the riot never accomplished anything. What I did say is that it is hurting more people than it helped. Setting random buildings on fire that had nothing to do with Freddie Gray's death isn't okay. How does setting random peoples' houses on fire help anyone?

[lijacote]

I never said that the riot never accomplished anything. What I did say is that it is hurting more people than it helped. Setting random buildings on fire that had nothing to do with Freddie Gray's death isn't okay. How does setting random peoples' houses on fire help anyone?

"This is why you need organization."

[Arx]

Your previous two posts come off as being very much in favour of the rioting, though. What kind of organisation are you hoping for? And what are you hoping it'll achieve?

[lijacote]

A revolutionary, theoretically sound leadership will help channel the anger, rage and frustration of the popular forces more constructively, rather than let it or encourage it to burn down houses. I am in favour of rebellion, yes, sure, I am very much of the mind that people should not take being murdered peacefully and in silence. There should be a loud demand for a total reformation of the police in Baltimore and elsewhere, and an acknowledge by the powers that be that there is incredible wrong-doing afoot, and it must address that properly. Bodycameras are not enough, the police are in charge of their use, etc., such reforms are not sufficient, and the people should not be content with it.

Of course it is absolutely the case that those houses should not be burnt. Should being the operative word here -- what is ideal and what is real rarely meet, and when reality's turn is up, I am in favour of the oppressed, not the oppressors. Righteous anger... that should be channeled.

Again and again, there must be leadership. Of a certain kind, no doubt, but I will not go into every detail of every aspect of every claim that can be found here.

[Arx]

Ah, okay, so you believe the people living in the retirement village are the oppressors?

The trouble is, I'm not sure rioting is better than doing nothing. Is justice for a lot of people worth gutting a whole city? Because it looks to me like that's what it's going to take at this rate.

[lijacote]

Ah, okay, so you believe the people living in the retirement village are the oppressors?

I claimed no such thing. The rioting is a spontaneous act of rebellion against the ruling class, the unfortunate victims of which in actuality are other poor people. If you want to make up shit on my behalf, I'll just not respond.

The trouble is, I'm not sure rioting is better than doing nothing. Is justice for a lot of people worth gutting a whole city? Because it looks to me like that's what it's going to take at this rate.

Doing nothing, huh. Take it in silence. Get murdered, be harassed. Have your family and friends kidnapped and brutalised by the police. Moralising the black and poor masses for not taking it peacefully, rather than attacking the powers that actually cause all of the oppression that provoke all of this, huh.

You are right, of course. I am sure that even with all of the people in Baltimore uniting, justice would not be served. But that is something that should be experienced by the masses. They must see the limits of the current government, of the current ruling class. Will they actually gut the whole city? Unlikely. Not something that should be taken seriously as a part of any actual argument.

I am tempted to invoke the MLK quote about moderates being the actual stumbling block on the way to justice. People who... well, let's just get the quote done with.

I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

[Zangi]

Out of sight, out of mind.

So we are weighing between two things: 
In one corner, the status quo, where people are routinely targeted by police, resulting in deaths and injuries, but its ok.  They are criminals.  These people have very little means of fixing said problem.

In the other corner, rioting, where unrelated people's stuff gets messed up by angry people who had enough with the treatment by the police.  Also opportunistic anarchists and looters taking advantage of that.  Change is happening as a result, for better or worse, stuff is happening.

Fight it out.

[Rolan7]

There's a big difference between rioting and protesting.  Rioting hurts innocents and generally hurts public opinion of the cause.  It doesn't help anyone but the looters.  Peaceful protests may seem ineffectual, but time has shown they do work when a cause is just.  Though often the government gets violent with peaceful protesters - which has an incredible effect on public opinion.  In the past, that would usually get covered up.  Now with all the free social media options, all they can do is try to spin it despite video evidence.

The public doesn't side with violent revolutionaries or looters except out of fear or hatred.  The public does sympathize with peaceful protests that get shut down.  Even if the cause is wrong, people will at least listen and consider.

[Descan]

Of course it is absolutely the case that those houses should not be burnt. Should being the operative word here -- what is ideal and what is real rarely meet, and when reality's turn is up, I am in favour of the oppressed, not the oppressors.

Iija, this is the part that made Arx think you said you consider the people in retirement homes oppressors. Though, honestly, really Arx? Gonna go that route? :v

[Arx]

Look, I understand where you're coming from. I understand inaction being a problem. But I cannot see how rioting is even close to a good solution, whilst it looks to me like you think that it's better than nothing but worse than an organised movement.

And I suspect I misinterpreted what you said, for which Iapologise.

[penguinofhonor]

.

[Rolan7]

Yeah, but that sort of cover-up or spinning is far more difficult now that so many people can record and upload videos.  And even back then, the truth came out.