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Author Topic: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice  (Read 442781 times)

Zangi

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1260 on: May 06, 2015, 08:43:32 am »

Nazi = National Socialist, remember. That bolded bit wasn't just for show.


Also you neglected to mention the millions of Jews, Poles, Russians, French, etc etc put into labor camps ('extermination through work' was  abig thing back then) who certainly did not enjoy these benefits while undoubtably qualifying as workers.
I'm pretty sure the concentration camps were a given.  I'm also pretty sure races of non-Aryan were considered lesser beings, therefore, they don't qualify as workers within the time and setting.
The word Nazi tends to has its meanings.
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Morrigi

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1261 on: May 06, 2015, 09:01:09 am »

Nazi = National Socialist, remember. That bolded bit wasn't just for show.


Also you neglected to mention the millions of Jews, Poles, Russians, French, etc etc put into labor camps ('extermination through work' was  abig thing back then) who certainly did not enjoy these benefits while undoubtably qualifying as workers.
Yes, and the Americans threw Japanese-Americans into concentration camps, the Americans and British firebombed Axis cities, murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent citizens and refugees, Soviet troops raped and murdered millions of innocents and sent God knows how many of their own soldiers, POWs, and anyone else they didn't like to gulags, the Japanese tortured, starved, and murdered countless POWs and Chinese civilians, etc. etc.

It was a shitty war, and all sides committed horrific acts throughout. However, these acts do not necessarily reflect long-term economic policy of the nations in question.

Nazi = National Socialist, remember. That bolded bit wasn't just for show.


Also you neglected to mention the millions of Jews, Poles, Russians, French, etc etc put into labor camps ('extermination through work' was  abig thing back then) who certainly did not enjoy these benefits while undoubtably qualifying as workers.
I'm pretty sure the concentration camps were a given.  I'm also pretty sure races of non-Aryan were considered lesser beings, therefore, they don't qualify as workers within the time and setting.
The word Nazi tends to has its meanings.
Both the Wehrmacht and S.S. had plenty of non-Aryans in their ranks, including over 150,000 Jews (of mixed descent) in the Wehrmacht, including a number of officers, and 3 Arab units in the Waffen S.S.

In this context, "Aryan" doesn't mean "blond hair and blue eyes" either, it means "of European descent", and speaking of the S.S., there were troops and formations hailing from France, Belgium, Estonia, Romania, Ukraine, Latvia, Russia, India, eastern Asia, Sweden, Norway, etc.

Now, if Slavs were considered subhuman by Nazi Germany as the propaganda says, they certainly wouldn't have been allowed to serve in the SS. Jews certainly weren't, aside from one of Adolf Hitler's personal limo drivers. And yet, there were indeed troops from multiple Slavic countries in the SS. Hitler also stated that the Japanese and Chinese in particular were "honorary Aryans", and German troops reportedly got along quite well with Arab troops, and Hitler had little negative to say about them either.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 09:07:49 am by Morrigi »
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SirQuiamus

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1262 on: May 06, 2015, 09:12:05 am »

...yada yada yada.

The Holocaust was not just a sideline – it was an essential part of Nazi economic policy.
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Morrigi

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1263 on: May 06, 2015, 09:17:15 am »

...yada yada yada.

The Holocaust was not just a sideline – it was an essential part of Nazi economic policy.
No, it was a last resort after they became unable to deport Jews due to the war. Look up the Haavara Agreement
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SirQuiamus

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1264 on: May 06, 2015, 09:22:52 am »

...yada yada yada.

The Holocaust was not just a sideline – it was an essential part of Nazi economic policy.
No, it was a last resort after they became unable to deport Jews due to the war. Look up the Haavara Agreement

No, the Haavara Agreement was just an expedient before they began implementing Endlösung. Look up Holocaust.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 09:29:59 am by SirQuiamus »
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Zangi

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1265 on: May 06, 2015, 09:28:05 am »

On a technicality, soldiers are not workers.  Also cause they did need the bodies to fight, so they can't be as discriminating.  (I think the SS had pretty specific requirements for recruits, but those requirements were lowered at the start of the war and even further during the war.)

But ya, fair enough.  I was being overgeneralizing there.  Only a few ethnicities were considered non/sub-human.
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Morrigi

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1266 on: May 06, 2015, 09:33:44 am »

...yada yada yada.

The Holocaust was not just a sideline – it was an essential part of Nazi economic policy.
No, it was a last resort after they became unable to deport Jews due to the war. Look up the Haavara Agreement

No, the Haavara Agreement was a just an expedient before they began implementing Endlösung. Look up Holocaust.
They wouldn't have  bothered to deport them if they wanted them all dead in the first place, nor would they have bothered to keep them fed at all.

If the initial intent was to have them all killed, then Germany wouldn't have wasted resources deporting those that they could, and feeding and housing the rest. The only remotely logical answer is that Himmler decided to have them killed after the war started, and after it became clear that Germany wouldn't be able to get rid of them in any other way.

On a technicality, soldiers are not workers.  Also cause they did need the bodies to fight, so they can't be as discriminating.  (I think the SS had pretty specific requirements for recruits, but those requirements were lowered at the start of the war and even further during the war.)

But ya, fair enough.  I was being overgeneralizing there.  Only a few ethnicities were considered non/sub-human.
Yes, Jews. As we well know, they really didn't like Jews.
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Sheb

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1267 on: May 06, 2015, 10:00:07 am »

Can we stop the Nazi derail?
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lijacote

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1268 on: May 06, 2015, 02:53:27 pm »

Nazi = National Socialist, remember. That bolded bit wasn't just for show.


Also you neglected to mention the millions of Jews, Poles, Russians, French, etc etc put into labor camps ('extermination through work' was  abig thing back then) who certainly did not enjoy these benefits while undoubtably qualifying as workers.
National socialism is socialism for a privileged people, not socialism by the working class for the whole population. It is not socialism in the sense of a politics derived from the interests and capacity of the working class, it is a reactionary response to exploitation and misery. If we're going to bring up the misery visited by the USSR on minorities, then we ought to bring up the misery visited by capitalism on many other millions as well. Or are those crimes not the crimes of capitalism?

The USSR (and its unfortunate policies) was the result of an ultimately failed revolution. The revolution was a success in many ways, but it did not succeed in bringing about the epoch of socialism. It relied on the successful uprisings of Germany and other developed nations, and those never came. What came was the intervention of many, many imperial armies that decimated the working class and destroyed the class basis for Bolshevik power. The subsequent fallout with the farmers (whose interests were not the same, ultimately, as those of the working class) further cemented the failure of the revolution, and the rise of the bureaucrat class.

If you contrast the reactionary periods of Stalin and his followers with what flowered during 1917, 1918, you will find great differences. While Gorky's phrasing of "destroy homosexuality and fascism will vanish" was adopted by Stalin, the outset of the revolution saw great gains made for lesbians, gays, bisexuals -- and even transgendered people (though the term, I think, did not exist then): there were procedures done with the best available methods and tools at the time to operate on a person's (for lack of a better term) sex. And note that this was during an incredibly bloody civil war and conflict with imperialist powers, it is not as if it could not be better had socialism actually triumphed and the likes of Austria and England stopped bothering this new organized workers' state with murder and destruction. It is not as if socialists themselves bring about the terrors of the world, it is the conflict with the existing ruling classes (or class, if you'd rather) that does it.

If you think socialism is the worst of the USSR and of Nazism, then you have a very confused and unfortunate view of socialism. It is undeniable that this view is held by many, but it is not what socialists want categorically. As a socialist, I want a revolution from below, I want political power for the working class, I want an end to oppressive and exploitative politics -- not just another Holocaust, not just more opportunism, imperialism. Socialism is the result of workers' power, and that is not what we have had. We have had something approaching that, but not quite. Trotsky and Cliff have referred to the USSR variably as a degenerated or deformed workers' state ("with bureaucratic distortions", I think was the phrasing) and a state capitalist entity. Either way, I think it is true enough that the working class did not have state power in what came to be the USSR.

While this might be considered a derailment, I don't think it is. A call for a socialist politics and a socialist presidential candidate (which is a very current question in the US right now) is relevant, and the critique (I am being generous here, what this actually is  is just a knee-jerk McCarthyist response) are interrelated. It is important for the history of the world that the history of socialism be actually expressed and that we don't rely on the lazy stereotyping and falsification of reactionaries.

You can find contemporary texts and better analysis on Marxists.org, in many different languages and from many authors of varying backgrounds. You have anarchists, marxists, bolsheviks, mensheviks, and a lot more. It is better to read what has actually been done and written rather than rely on forum posts that claim knowledge, even if they seem reliable and convincing.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 02:56:45 pm by lijacote »
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Frumple

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1269 on: May 06, 2015, 03:33:31 pm »

... well, to provide something rather odd on the police/legal side of things, instead of this derail about an extreme minority political demographic that has functionally zero traction in the US, have this, an article about honolulu police deciding to arrest and charge prostitutes with sexual assault.

No, not their clients, nor the pimps. The prostitutes. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around how they're justifying this. Yes, the area in question actually has laws against prostitution (petty misdemeanor, 30 days in jail), but have somehow decided that charging them with sexual assault (which includes an aspect of compulsion, i.e. they somehow forced their clients, and can carry up to a full year's incarceration). If there's ever an example of targeting victims...
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nenjin

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1270 on: May 06, 2015, 03:48:43 pm »

My guess would be some people who thought they were getting a legitimate massage got a.....surprise, and reported it as an unwanted sexual assault.
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Morrigi

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1271 on: May 07, 2015, 03:04:54 am »

My guess would be some people who thought they were getting a legitimate massage got a.....surprise, and reported it as an unwanted sexual assault.
Either that, or it's shitty police being shit.
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Helgoland

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1272 on: May 07, 2015, 05:06:27 am »

If you think socialism is the worst of the USSR and of Nazism, then you have a very confused and unfortunate view of socialism.
Wait, what? All I mentioned was that Socialist elements were part of the very core of the National Socialist ideology...
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Zangi

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1273 on: May 07, 2015, 08:13:15 am »

I reckon the blame goes to prostitutes, because they are the ones who are enticing innocent johns to acts of depravity and demanding money for it.
Cause them pimps are actually matchmakers trying to set up these women with good men.
Personal responsibility and all that.  Ya know.

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Redzephyr01

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1274 on: May 07, 2015, 10:09:42 am »

To anyone who supports the Baltimore riots:
Do any of you actually live in Baltimore, or at least nearby?
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