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[heydude6]

Hey guys how do i join?

[Paulus Fahlstrom]

Heydude6, congrats, you just did. I need request info from you for your minion and starting hero.

Shadow, yes, you can obviously order your hero to do whatever. However, minions are technically citizens, heroes are not. With a population at 250, all menial jobs are more than covered. We have bonecarvers. Several of them. They are starved for work, like almost everyone else. And as much as Shadow produces, along with everyone else we have a surplus of tradegoods. Minion items produced automatically belong to the city. Hero items belong to the hero, minus expenses for materials. So if you want to produce a boatload of bone goods to keep in your house, fine.

How do you make more money? Well, you're going to have to come up with ideas. I'm busy running the city. ;P (I know that's not the answer you want but if you want to try things I'm open. But most basic crafting and supply jobs are taken.)

Meph, yeah, yeah, I'm well aware that you know. But I'm not going to go looking through the raws to determine which code applies to which creature, and it's not spelled out explicitly anywhere.

Out of curiosity Meph, the collapsed brick... is it ever supposed to produce anything when mined? I see chest icons flash briefly when clearing on occasion like it used to but there doesn't seem to be anything that is ever left behind from it.

[Meph]

Collapsed brick, just like rubble, doesnt produce anything except harmless gas that evaporates.

[Shadow Of Fate]

How do you make more money? Well, you're going to have to come up with ideas. I'm busy running the city. ;P (I know that's not the answer you want but if you want to try things I'm open. But most basic crafting and supply jobs are taken.)

So you are telling me to come up with ideas, but also that there is just about nothing really left to fill? Ughhh...

Do you not understand my situation? I got two girls working for me to bring in the dough. One more and I can officially call myself the #1 Merchant PimpTM and no one will get in the way of my gravy train! I will find a way to make this happen.

Shadow, yes, you can obviously order your hero to do whatever. However, minions are technically citizens, heroes are not. With a population at 250, all menial jobs are more than covered. We have bonecarvers. Several of them. They are starved for work, like almost everyone else. And as much as Shadow produces, along with everyone else we have a surplus of tradegoods. Minion items produced automatically belong to the city. Hero items belong to the hero, minus expenses for materials. So if you want to produce a boatload of bone goods to keep in your house, fine.

So you are telling me that I am free to order my hero to do as I like, but that you don't have anything non combat oriented for them to do? I take that as a challenge! So hero goods are not considered "trade goods?" Oh well. I can STILL work with this. You may try to shut me out with your practicality, but I found a loophole!

Hero items belong to the hero, minus expenses for materials. So if you want to produce a boatload of bone goods to keep in your house, fine.

Yes. But I can order the hero to do anything, including what to do with their gear. So after I produce a boatload of goods for my stockpile, would it not be possible to order my hero to SELL the goods? And because they aren't city goods, would that mean I keep my share of the profits? Heck, I could set up an entire black market.

Of course, there is a flip side of this as well. I have to pay for the materials. But if I were to say, invest in livestock, I could create a breeding population and slaughter the extra livestock myself. In theory, this would let me make an initial purchase of the livestock without having to pay further for materials. Unless, of course, I need to pay for land or something. I could be the first person to make their hero a venture capitalist.

My master plan requires:

An initial purchase in livestock.
A place to raise them/contain them.
Animal taming skills for my hero.
A stockpile in my new hero's house.
The ability to butcher myself. (Maybe part of my hero's house?)
And the ability to bonecarve/leatherwork.

This list is only preliminary. Please let me know if it works, or if there are any issues I'm sure you will have with it.

[Onod Itlud]

Very interesting so far. I'll take one of the first fools militia to try out the primitive firearms if you wouldn't mind, and a warrior for him to attend to.

No need for any existing combat skill, just pick somebody you think could use a military tour.

EDIT: I'm not too picky on the names, see what they come with and if it's sub par I'm sure we can decide on something else.
First order of business is training, asking the smithy for a breastplate and helm, and getting leather-worker to fill out the rest.   

[heydude6]

Okay, how about I become a miner, my first order of business would be to dig a 5-zlevel deep and 4-blocks wide mote around the city. Don't connect it to the sea(don't fill it with water either),  make it more this ] shaped. leave a gap of 5 blocks between the end of the mote and the sea


Minion name: Malcolm Stevenson
Hero name: Geronimo (warrior)

Can I have a copy of the map?

[Shadow Of Fate]

Is this still a thing? Did I scare you away with my ambition?

[Paulus Fahlstrom]

Heh, no. I have just been in process of moving. Sorry again for absence. I have everything mostly set up again and have been able to post once more.

In regards to the questions, Shadow, no technical issues with your idea. Practically you may want to think about which animals you consider. We have very little grazing space. And you would need to buy property inside the city. 100 gold per square for ground level space. You can expand belowgrounds, but not above without paying the same price for additional levels. Hero items can be traded. If you trade to caravans you can only get actual items, not credit in gold. If you with to trade to merchant stalls you get to keep the gold directly, minus 10% merchant fees. So, 6 units of leather sell for 500 gold I believe. (Smallest unit of increment in markets, so for every 6 leather you sell you would get 450 gold.)

Onod Itlud, your request has been acknowledged. I will work on finding a designated minion and acquiring you a hero.

Heydude6, also acknowledged. Your miner, in order to comply with your request will be locked out of the city. Otherwise other miners will be assigned to your tasks, which defeats the purpose. I may not be able to get 5 z levels deep due to the aquifer. Is this still acceptible?
I will work on acquiring you a warrior as well.

[heydude6]

oh, there's an aquifer. How deep is it?

[Shadow Of Fate]

Heh, no. I have just been in process of moving. Sorry again for absence. I have everything mostly set up again and have been able to post once more.

That's understandable. I have been quite busy as of late myself. In the future, it might be more prudent to just let us know you may be away for awhile rather than pulling a disappearing act and leaving us wondering.

In regards to the questions, Shadow, no technical issues with your idea.

What? You mean it checks out? Wow. I did not expect it to be that easy. Not that I'm complaining mind you. And I thought my rational was sound. I just thought there would be some unforeseen thing because of your prior tone.

Practically you may want to think about which animals you consider. We have very little grazing space. And you would need to buy property inside the city. 100 gold per square for ground level space. You can expand belowgrounds, but not above without paying the same price for additional levels. Hero items can be traded. If you trade to caravans you can only get actual items, not credit in gold. If you with to trade to merchant stalls you get to keep the gold directly, minus 10% merchant fees. So, 6 units of leather sell for 500 gold I believe. (Smallest unit of increment in markets, so for every 6 leather you sell you would get 450 gold.)

Yep. Here are the technical limitations. Money. I have to buy a second hero and then buy the land and the cattle. The problem is that I probably don't have enough right now. But it isn't too early to start planning. There are several advantages to being underground, which is why I want to aim for that. The first is that I can expand where above ground might be limited. The second is that it would be easier to keep my livestock safe from any thieves that may sneak in. The third is that I can contain them better even without a lot of grazing land.

Ideally, I would have the following on my property:

Grazing land - or at the very least an area to contain non-grazing animals.
Butcher shop for leather
Tanning shop also for leather
Boncarving station for bonecarving
Stockpile area for storage
Attached bedroom so the hero can be closer. He/she wouldn't have to pay rent if he bought the land, would they?

My biggest problem with grazing land underground is that I would likely need light. Is there a way to have a non grazer animal type contained without assigning them to a pasture? Or will I have to settle for glass in the ceiling to let light through?

The livestock I'm considering are as follows:

Turkeys - non grazing and egg laying. Best egg laying numbers and meat of all egg laying domestics. Only drawback is slower growth rate.
Pigs - non grazing and milkable
Dogs - non grazing and cheaper than pigs. They may represent better value.

I'm staying away from cats because of how they get adopted. Btw, I only looked at domestic. If there was the ability to get something else that was non-grazing, I woulds consider it. But I do not know what is available.

Now for heroes I'm considering:

Conjurer - I know it is minimal, but I should be able to slaughter the summons for a bit extra leather. But it's 20,000 gold I don't have.
Bard - Very cheap. 10,000 gold. Unfortunately, it's a he so I can't crown myself #1 Merchant PimpTM if I do this.
Barbarian - Cheapest female hero at 15,000. Normally I wouldn't care but I'm on a roll and I have a title to earn. Also very good for a fighting hero, but I don't care about that.

This plus any stats I might want to buy in animal training.

Total cost:

Varied depending on what I want to do, but it will definitely cost a lot. I guess the first things I should do is figure out how much room I need for my complex and then estimate the cost of that. Then I can figure out what hero I want.

[Paulus Fahlstrom]

The aquifer is, I believe, two levels deep. I have pierced it near the ocean since the ocean biome doesn't contain soil for some reason.

Underground grazing/pasture would be simple enough. Shadow can make the green glass blocks herself. If you are planning on selling directly for gold of the items you mentioned you can sell scales, meat and leather directly for gold. Eggs can be sold to the merchants but you would have to trade for something else.

[Shadow Of Fate]

Alright. I need to start figuring out how much space I need so I can get a cost estimate. Let me know if I am off on this, or if I can save on space. Here is my basic estimate:

1. Initial entrance house above ground - I estimate 9 spaces for the walls, lockable door, and stairs to go underground as soon as you enter. I believe walls are included underground because you are surrounded by dirt? So I wouldn't have to buy those space to have boundaries underground, would I?
2. Bedroom - I am already buying land as it is. What is 9 more for a semi-comfortable bedroom to keep my new hero close to the operation?
3. Butcher shop - I am estimating 9 spaces? Is this correct? I don't want anymore than I need for this one.
4. Tanner's Shop - Again, I am estimating 9 spaces.
5. Craft Workshop - For bonecarving. I still estimate 9 spaces.

So that is 9+9+9+9+9 or 9*5 = 45. 

I am also prepared to buy as much as 15 extra spaces of hallway to get lock doors, including double or even triple locked doors around the pasture to keep things secure. I don't think it will take that much. But I will figure that out when I figure out the layout.

So that is 45 + x when x = anywhere from say 4 to 15.

Potential problems?

There are a few potential major flaws that I know of:

1. I am using dwarf logistics. I do not know if the human fortress behaves differently to the point where guilds have to be built instead.
2. I am assuming I don't have to pay for extra space for the underground walls because the ground acts as a natural barrier. I am also assuming buying my own land for my complex with a bedroom means no rent for my next hero.
3. I do not have estimates for the stockpile or grazing areas because I do not know how much room I will need. I have never been good at grazing estimates. Speaking of which...

Please let me know if this if as efficient as it can be and if it checks out.

Underground grazing/pasture would be simple enough. Shadow can make the green glass blocks herself. If you are planning on selling directly for gold of the items you mentioned you can sell scales, meat and leather directly for gold. Eggs can be sold to the merchants but you would have to trade for something else.

So underground grazing pasture seems to be viable. Just out of curiosity, is there a way to keep the animals in one place without assigning them to a pasture. I am planning on using non-grazing animals afterall. It's ok if the answer is no. But I want to weigh my options because it seems kind of silly to have pastures for animals that don't need them.

I also have a concern that animals tend to attack each other if they are too constricted. Roughly how much space do you think I would need per animal? Say I have 3 breeding pairs (3 males and 3 females) of whatever and then had room for their reproduction. Roughly how much space per animal do I need so they don't kill each other?

[heydude6]

fine make me a mechanic instead, first order of business place 4 cage traps somewhere random on the map. I get dibs on the creatures right?

[Paulus Fahlstrom]

Heydude6, and Onod Itlud, your minions and details have been added to the Character details. Look there for your minion bios.

I found a mechanic for you heydude, but she was about the only one. I don't use very many. I do, however have 4 cage traps in front of the main gate that I will now consider yours. Because anybody can pick up a caged animal I do not want them scattered across the map. The main entrance works very well. I routinely pick up asps, dingoes, jaguars and lions. Only the jaguars and lions are war-trainable and I have a breeding program for those in place. I am working on raising fully tamed warbeasts from them.

Onod, for now you have a bow. Once I get your hero in I will assign your minion to his squad and will equip you individually at that time.

Shadow, to address your concerns:
1. The basic workshops largely function the same. If you want to convert your basic leather to studded or lamellar you will need to use the guild.
2. Underground walls act as a natural barrier. You will not need to buy underground wall space. And yes, you buy your hero living space you will not need to pay rent and your taxes will decrease by 15%. If you isolate yourself and provide your own food and drink I will reduce it to zero for isolated heroes. However, you risk starvation, dehydration and/or unhappy thoughts.
3. Grazing area... yeah, I've never been good with that. I just butcher all my grazers. In terms of animal logistics, you only need 1 male and 3 females for three breeding pairs. I've never had an issue with animals attacking each other due to space concerns. I've also never tried to quantum-stockpile cats. You might want to consider separating the breeding pairs and having them tied to a rope and putting the offspring in a pasture.

Also, the save file has been uploaded with link in the OP if you are interested heydude.

And a current map of the city and environs is here:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Shadow Of Fate]

Shadow, to address your concerns:
1. The basic workshops largely function the same. If you want to convert your basic leather to studded or lamellar you will need to use the guild.

Basic should be fine for starters. But I may want to consider building it close to the guild just in case I want to upgrade the leather later. Hmm...

2. Underground walls act as a natural barrier. You will not need to buy underground wall space. And yes, you buy your hero living space you will not need to pay rent and your taxes will decrease by 15%. If you isolate yourself and provide your own food and drink I will reduce it to zero for isolated heroes. However, you risk starvation, dehydration and/or unhappy thoughts.

I don't think it is worth paying no taxes to risk starvation, dehydration, and unhappy thoughts. But not paying rent sounds great. Well worth 900 gold or so.

3. Grazing area... yeah, I've never been good with that. I just butcher all my grazers. In terms of animal logistics, you only need 1 male and 3 females for three breeding pairs. I've never had an issue with animals attacking each other due to space concerns. I've also never tried to quantum-stockpile cats. You might want to consider separating the breeding pairs and having them tied to a rope and putting the offspring in a pasture.

Yes. The problem with 3 females and one male is that there is no backup in case the male dies. I could always just buy another, but meh. But this is definitely the hardest part of the estimate. That and the stockpile. Although, I guess maybe if I figured out the animal I can make an estimate and always just enlarge it later if I have to. But the overcrowding mechanic makes the pasture a problem. Even if I use non-grazers because I have to worry about that.

So I looked it up on the wiki:

"To avoid overcrowding, groups of animals should not be confined to small spaces, such as ill-devised pastures, small meeting halls, or pits. For non-grazing creatures, a cage can easily hold any number of animals without overcrowding. Grazers generally require a pasture, however multiple creatures in the same pasture tend to cluster in the upper-left corner, potentially leading to overcrowding despite sufficient pastureland. Each animal can be assigned to its own pasture to prevent overcrowding, at the expense of space and significant micromanagement."

I see. Interesting. I didn't know you could make a bunch of smaller separate pastures. But it isn't exactly space efficient to have space in between them. So if x = a pasture square and . = empty space, could I do a checkered pattern like this for my non-grazers?

x.x.x
.x.x.
x.x.x
.x.x.

Or would it not count because they are connected diagonally? But if I don't have grazers, apparently I can just keep them in cages? Hmmm... That seems like a recipe for disaster. Didn't that megabeast die in a cage for some unknown reason? Well I do think I will take your advice about the keeping the breeding pairs on rope. But that will likely require more space in addition to the pasture. Hmmm.... I have no idea what to do. I'll have to sleep on it.