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[Ramirez]

Actually, most gene seed mutations are generally "bad".  Technically, it should be thrown out as tainted by chaos.  But it's too rare, so you dump it into recruits anyways and hope for the best.  I think the game should however track the various mutations.  I mean, it's not like it all goes bad at once.  So specializing it out so as to limit the risk makes sense.  Although it goes against the whole "Band of Brothers" vibe of a Space Marine Chapter.  They're warriors, not technocrats!

The mutations are mostly seen as "bad" because they are generally considered to be heretical, much like now normal human mutants are generally shot on sight. There's a few mutations here and there that aren't bad from a practical perspective though, such as the Black Dragons' overactive Ossmodula that results in bony protrusions that can be used as effective melee weapons or the Thousand Sons' increased psychic potential.

In terms of mutations, the simplest way of keeping track of it would be to simply have random events (the chance of occuring which would obviously be dependent on other factors, such as quantity/quality of apothecaries, genetic stability, exposure to chaos, quality of storage etc) that would result in a percentage of the available Gene-Seed reserves being identified as mutated into their own strain. Having individual marines with the occasional oddity is fine as a one-off mutation, but having a full family tree of Gene-Seed would be completely overkill. By gating Gene-Seed behind certain events or recovered directly from other marines ensures that the player will typically only have access to at most a few types of Gene-Seed, which is quite a manageable amount and it keeps the choices behind their usage meaningful.

[E. Albright]

On the subject of games where you're playing as the leader rather than as the faction the leader belongs to... anyone try the demo for Alliance of the Sacred Suns? I'm curious if it'll be more Emperor of the Fading Suns, Stellaris, or Chapter Master Writ Large. I suppose I need to download it and find out...

[ndkid]

On the subject of games where you're playing as the leader rather than as the faction the leader belongs to... anyone try the demo for Alliance of the Sacred Suns? I'm curious if it'll be more Emperor of the Fading Suns, Stellaris, or Chapter Master Writ Large. I suppose I need to download it and find out...

It has its own thread here on the forums, Steve/TexasHawk drops in to update once in a blue moon. It certainly doesn't feel anything like CM to me. I suppose EotFS is the closest to it of the three, but it's even closer to Emerson's original design doc for MOO3 that was dropped when he was tossed of the creative team for it.

[E. Albright]

Yeah, I downloaded the demo and it's way too high-level and abstract to be even remotely relevant even if (like CM) you're a commander rather than an abstract faction. It mostly feels like it's about personal relationships so far, and CM is way out on the frontier (or at least front lines) where court intrigue tends to reach orky levels of subtly.

[EuchreJack]

On the subject of games where you're playing as the leader rather than as the faction the leader belongs to... anyone try the demo for Alliance of the Sacred Suns? I'm curious if it'll be more Emperor of the Fading Suns, Stellaris, or Chapter Master Writ Large. I suppose I need to download it and find out...

Nope, nope, and nope.  Closest parallel is probably Crusader Kings as an Emperor.  Holy Roman Emperor, probably, with a little Byzantine Emperor to "keep you on your toes".

Glad someone else is fiddling with Alliance of the Sacred Suns!

[Blogaugis]

Personally, I wish someone would make a Rogue Trader simulator based on the 40K Rogue Traders.  Best of all, it would be easy to avoid the copyright issues. I'd also love an Imperial Guard Regiment simulator.

Yeah.
To be fair, Starsector might be the one, already quite close to rogue trader simulator - it is already a bit grimdark, post vast interstellar domain collapse era - just not 40k... But, even that can be bypassed with mods...
Endless sky would be a space trader simulator - free to play as well, though a bit rough around the edges.
As for other similar games - various games, set in 'pirates in the carribean' theme (Tortuga: Pirates of the new world, port royale series...) are basically trader simulators to certain extent. So, there are examples, sources of inspiration.

As for army management simulators... Well... this one is harder to find.

Actually, most gene seed mutations are generally "bad".  Technically, it should be thrown out as tainted by chaos.  But it's too rare, so you dump it into recruits anyways and hope for the best.  I think the game should however track the various mutations.  I mean, it's not like it all goes bad at once.  So specializing it out so as to limit the risk makes sense.  Although it goes against the whole "Band of Brothers" vibe of a Space Marine Chapter.  They're warriors, not technocrats!

'Band of brothers' would work if it was RPG, like Dawn of War 2 to certain extent...
Plus, good luck surviving as a renegade then - I'm not signing up for that kind of masochism yet.

Agreed, although I always figured other chapters were meant to show up in your sector later in development.  Otherwise the Parent Chapter and Chapter Diplomacy makes no sense.

I suppose in these grimdark times legion-building will have to wait...

War Desk:

The main crux is to make it interesting. More than reading it on paper anyway.

The mutations are mostly seen as "bad" because they are generally considered to be heretical, much like now normal human mutants are generally shot on sight. There's a few mutations here and there that aren't bad from a practical perspective though, such as the Black Dragons' overactive Ossmodula that results in bony protrusions that can be used as effective melee weapons or the Thousand Sons' increased psychic potential.

In terms of mutations, the simplest way of keeping track of it would be to simply have random events (the chance of occuring which would obviously be dependent on other factors, such as quantity/quality of apothecaries, genetic stability, exposure to chaos, quality of storage etc) that would result in a percentage of the available Gene-Seed reserves being identified as mutated into their own strain. Having individual marines with the occasional oddity is fine as a one-off mutation, but having a full family tree of Gene-Seed would be completely overkill. By gating Gene-Seed behind certain events or recovered directly from other marines ensures that the player will typically only have access to at most a few types of Gene-Seed, which is quite a manageable amount and it keeps the choices behind their usage meaningful.

Thousand Sons don't care about 'heretical' part...
Considering that gene-seed is like an incomplete astartes, and You already said that it is better to track each individual marine as a brother and a character - rather than just marine 1, 2 and 3 - I think gene-seed should also get the same treatment, that is - tracked individually.

[EuchreJack]

Considering that gene-seed is like an incomplete astartes, and You already said that it is better to track each individual marine as a brother and a character - rather than just marine 1, 2 and 3 - I think gene-seed should also get the same treatment, that is - tracked individually.

Since at least currently the geneseed mutates in batches instead of individually, I think that is how to treat it.  Its more akin to various types of power armor than individual marines.  In fact the Power Armor is MORE unique than the gene seed as per lore.

I think the player should be able to set tiers of geneseed.  So the pure geneseed is what I give my recruits when I have 100 geneseed and have enough of the pure stuff to go around.  The mutated stuff is kept to endow when its all I have left and my chapter is DOWN to its last 500 brothers.

Of course, the geneseed needs to be tested via implantation.  So somebody has to be the first user of the mutated stuff...

[Blogaugis]

Since at least currently the geneseed mutates in batches instead of individually, I think that is how to treat it.  Its more akin to various types of power armor than individual marines.  In fact the Power Armor is MORE unique than the gene seed as per lore.

Okay, now I am confused - if it is all about a 'band of brothers' thing, which have the same genetic material - and if stories about this kind of reincarnation are true: space marine dies, but his memories live on, for his gene-seed will be used on another brother - This SHOULD give the reason for why gene-seed have to be tracked individually. You now are 300th battle-brother, who uses this gene-seed.
And another thing about batches - does it have to stay that way? We have an entire apothecarium window available - I think it is better to use it for more than just batches of test-slave incubators.

I think the player should be able to set tiers of geneseed.  So the pure geneseed is what I give my recruits when I have 100 geneseed and have enough of the pure stuff to go around.  The mutated stuff is kept to endow when its all I have left and my chapter is DOWN to its last 500 brothers.

In addition to tracking each individually, certain ones should be added into a category which can be created at any time, and setting the rules for when and how gene-seed in the category is used. The categories should also function as a collapsable list, for the purpose of making apothecarium window less messy.

Of course, the geneseed needs to be tested via implantation.  So somebody has to be the first user of the mutated stuff...

If you don't have an experienced apothecary to tell you full information, yes...
And on the other hand - gene-seed exists to be used anyway...

Also, while we are on topic of gene-seed - remember about the logistics and location of gene-seed?
Well, the location can serve as one of the key factors in determining to what branch the gene-seed belongs. Additionally, it makes sense because different locations have different amounts of radiation which is - one of the causes of mutations. So, with this in mind, you would want to keep a gene-seed repository somewhere deep beneath the surface of a world with atmoshpere and magnetic field, in order to keep it safe(r) from mutations, since - as vast as ships in 40k can be, I still believe that gene-seed is better protected from mutations when on the planet, rather than on ships.

[EuchreJack]

@Blogaugis: Are you going to program it? Because if not, then whatever gets programmed is what gets programmed.  I'm suggesting what I feel might be easier options, but I'm no programmer and your options might be easier.  Whichever kind soul continues development is going to do whatever they're comfortable doing.

Heh, I was really active in the discussions regarding LCS back in the day, and other games since then.  And I'm blessed that one of my ideas (or maybe two) were used in LCS, and a couple have been used in other games.  If we're not going to program, its best to keep to broad ideas of "Hey what about this?", and let the people doing the actual work with actual knowledge decide what they want to do.

[Blogaugis]

Are you going to program it? Because if not, then whatever gets programmed is what gets programmed.  I'm suggesting what I feel might be easier options, but I'm no programmer and your options might be easier.  Whichever kind soul continues development is going to do whatever they're comfortable doing.

Not likely. At least, for the time being.
I'd prefer to do my own thing with an engine I'm comfortable with. Some fiddling around the engines is required to get the feel first...

Heh, I was really active in the discussions regarding LCS back in the day, and other games since then.  And I'm blessed that one of my ideas (or maybe two) were used in LCS, and a couple have been used in other games.  If we're not going to program, its best to keep to broad ideas of "Hey what about this?", and let the people doing the actual work with actual knowledge decide what they want to do.

LCS?

Alright. Just, with our discussion seemingly dying out, it does not seem that we are giving many ideas.
Getting back close to square 1 - what should Chapter Master be about?
Basically the same as Dwarf fortress, replacing the setting with 40k, dwarves with Space Marines, fortress with chapter?

It frankly wouldn't work that well, with what SMs are doing - Forge Master might be a better attempt at plagiarism, with techmarines building stuff.
But if we want to go with the chapter - how different should the game from DF be?

Detailed plans of your fortress monastery/flagship might be nice, but as a chapter master, I'm sure you have more serious and grand stuff in mind. Ramirez gave an idea:

Rather than busywork like supply chains and whether you accidentally left that crate of ceramite on whatever moon or not, the game should focus on the core gameplay of your dudes, diplomacy, making questionable decisions with long term consequences, deploying forces and managing your dudes.

And the management of your dudes is also why I don't feel that the game can support a significant increase in scale, such as managing a whole legion or including direct management of auxiliary forces. The current 1000ish marines is a lot, but it is just about within the realms of keeping things personal and for players to get attached to their forces. This is particularly important, as the original concept the game was basically some kind of hybrid between Dwarf Fortress and Chaos Gate, both games in which players tend to get attached to their favourite Dwarves/Marines. Sure, some degree of automation can help streamline things, but relying exclusively on automation to be able to play the game drives a wedge between the player and their marines.

As a proponent of being a jack-of-all-trades, I prefer if the CM also had the option of employing auxiliaries. Guardsmen and renegades, if not fighting alongside, then distracting the enemy at least.
So, how about a hybrid here: you have 1000 elites, your battle brothers, who are the finest warriors, whose participation may decide the outcome of the battle or even the war. You have the option to manage them closely.
But also, there are auxiliaries - you do not enjoy a high degree of freedom managing them, but enough to direct them in the right direction.

I find it weird, that a 1000 marines do a purge of aliens on some large world far away...
Because frankly, SMs should be more of a special forces, which weaken the enemy significantly in a place or 2, which allows the guard to finish them off. Days of the Legion are gone, the only way to bring them back is to either go traitor or at least renegade.
Although, keeping in mind that a single turn lasts a month, this might not be that unrealistic...

[E. Albright]

LCS?

Liberal Crime Squad. An early Bay 12 Game (very roughly simulating/satirizing the actions of the Symbionese Liberation Army) that got handed over to the community for further development. It lives in the Curses Games subforum, right above the Other Games subforum you're in right now.

[Ramirez]

Okay, now I am confused - if it is all about a 'band of brothers' thing, which have the same genetic material - and if stories about this kind of reincarnation are true: space marine dies, but his memories live on, for his gene-seed will be used on another brother - This SHOULD give the reason for why gene-seed have to be tracked individually. You now are 300th battle-brother, who uses this gene-seed.

It all comes down to diminishing returns on how deep you go. It's about player choice vs player busywork. Considering how purestrain geneseed is basically a fungible resource for a given chapter, there's absolutely no need to track exactly the history of each progenoid as all it'll do is add another 10 minutes of clicking as the player decides that "yes, each of my 400 pure strain Blood Angel progenoids should be available for implantation" as they tick off each and every geneseed in their reserves. The same result result could be achieved by ticking the "Pure Strain Blood Angel" box and unticking the "Death Company" box.

It's similar to how the game could keep track of every single boltgun in the chapter. But what's the point when 99% of the bolters in a chapter are practically identical? It's much better to instead group them appropriately into a few different patterns, maybe with a few master-crafted artifact ones, as it offers the same end choice to the player but without going through hundreds of identical data entries.

It's much more manageable to see a list of boltguns as something like:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Godwyn Pattern Boltgun: 86
Phobos Pattern Boltgun: 17
Umbra Pattern Boltgun: 21
"Vengeance of Ultramar" - Master-Crafted Godwyn Pattern
"Inexorable Advance" - Master-Crafted Umbra Pattern

Rather than:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Godwyn Pattern Boltgun #4
Godwyn Pattern Boltgun #7
Godwyn Pattern Boltgun #8
Godwyn Pattern Boltgun #10
Godwyn Pattern Boltgun #15
Godwyn Pattern Boltgun #26
Godwyn Pattern Boltgun #29
...
Next Page

[Blogaugis]

Liberal Crime Squad... Okay, got it, thanks - I should check it out sometime...

It all comes down to diminishing returns on how deep you go. It's about player choice vs player busywork. Considering how purestrain geneseed is basically a fungible resource for a given chapter, there's absolutely no need to track exactly the history of each progenoid as all it'll do is add another 10 minutes of clicking as the player decides that "yes, each of my 400 pure strain Blood Angel progenoids should be available for implantation" as they tick off each and every geneseed in their reserves. The same result result could be achieved by ticking the "Pure Strain Blood Angel" box and unticking the "Death Company" box.

It's similar to how the game could keep track of every single boltgun in the chapter. But what's the point when 99% of the bolters in a chapter are practically identical? It's much better to instead group them appropriately into a few different patterns, maybe with a few master-crafted artifact ones, as it offers the same end choice to the player but without going through hundreds of identical data entries.

It's much more manageable to see a list of boltguns as something like:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Godwyn Pattern Boltgun: 86
Phobos Pattern Boltgun: 17
Umbra Pattern Boltgun: 21
"Vengeance of Ultramar" - Master-Crafted Godwyn Pattern
"Inexorable Advance" - Master-Crafted Umbra Pattern

Rather than:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Godwyn Pattern Boltgun #4
Godwyn Pattern Boltgun #7
Godwyn Pattern Boltgun #8
Godwyn Pattern Boltgun #10
Godwyn Pattern Boltgun #15
Godwyn Pattern Boltgun #26
Godwyn Pattern Boltgun #29
...
Next Page

Or, how about this:
Armamentarium screen:
+ Bolters: 500, 475 in use.
+ Heavy Bolters: 100, 75 in use.
... Create category, delete category

After clicking the + sign on the Bolters, we get a detailed statistics:
- Bolters: 500, 475 in use.
   + Godwyn Pattern Bolters: 125, 100 in use.
   + Phobos Pattern Bolters: 70, 60 in use.
   + Custom1 Pattern Bolters: 10, 10 in use. - who told Chapter Master, that he can't ask techmarines to develop custom types of bolters?
... Create Bolter category, delete bolter category

So we open the Custom Pattern Bolters:
- Bolters: 500, 475 in use.
   - Custom1 Pattern Bolters: 10, 10 in use.
     Bolter#1 - equipped by Markus Aurelius, 5th Company, 5th Squad.
     Stats: Damage: 30, Armor Penetration: 10, Shots per battle turn: 12, Range: 14, Shots per battle: 5...
     Usage history: Used by Markus Aurelius in 2 battles. Ork slugga's killed: 15, Necron Warriors killed: 4...
     Rename weapon, add tag, add category, equip, unequip...
  ...
...
Obviously, Space Marines are not technocrats (at least, not all chapters have detailed statistics ledgers, but Perturabo, being reliant on logic, must have these tools at his disposal, to get his tricks working).
And considering we are managing Our Brothers pretty closely, I think we need this kind of thing.
Also, this would allow weapon evolution - for example, psyker extensively uses this bolter to kill 1000's of orks, to the point that the bolter itself becomes imbued with psychic energy, allowing it to become more effective when used against Orks.
Just imagine the possibilities...

[TheMusician321]

Does anyone have a mirror for The Lion's chapter master updates? The DL link is down.

[Blogaugis]

Does anyone have a mirror for The Lion's chapter master updates? The DL link is down.

You mean, this one does not work anymore?

Chapter Master v0.6602 updated link.

https://mixdrop.sx/f/kn3oe4pxsekkrg

Back to the topic of quality versus quantity approach:
If we sort the weapons in the Ramirez's proposed way, why do we still try to go with quality and Space Marines approach, rather than the Imperial Guard?
Because, if we recognise that each weapon in astartes arsenal is at least bit unique, and can be infuenced by combat (warp machinations, field modifications and such), we should keep each weapon and equipment bit down to individual level.
Otherwise - this should better turn into an Imperial Guard simulator or at least a Space Marine Legion simulator.
At the very least, allow (semi-)renegade/traitor runs with various auxiliaries, such as the supporting guardsmen, serfs and weapon servitors.

Otherwise... why keep a chapter with little effects of combat experience/worn equipment? They are just a statistic at this point.